Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

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West Virginia Mule
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#51 Post by West Virginia Mule » 09 Jan 2010 20:29

^ yeah yes yep yup uh-huh
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#52 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Jan 2010 20:53

The movie would have been much better if they had just shown the humans killing all the aliens and systematically destroying their world.
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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#53 Post by West Virginia Mule » 09 Jan 2010 21:22

All movies would be better if that happened in them.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#54 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Jan 2010 21:26

I so enjoy myself watching a good genocide. It's heartwarming, really.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#55 Post by West Virginia Mule » 09 Jan 2010 21:49

It's why I like World War Zwei movies so much.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#56 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Jan 2010 21:56

We don't say World War Zwei, dear. We say Zweiter Weltkrieg!
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#57 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 09 Jan 2010 22:14

You don't say 'Die Führer' either, but soldiers in bad Nazi flicks do it plenty.

In reality though, the German lexical corpus 96% is accounted for by Lederhosen, Scheiße, Heil, and Bundeskanzlerin.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#58 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Jan 2010 23:04

It is general said that "The cat is on the mat" is true if and only if the cat is on the mat. What we would all like to know, though, is what the cat is doing on the damn mat anyway.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#59 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 09 Jan 2010 23:14

IT IS GENERAL SAID.

To be honest, I don't believe in this 'truth value', most mathematics / philosophy seems to treat this as a meta-property outside of the alphabet. I praefer the lambda calculus / C approach to away with it altogether and formalize 'truth values' by replacing 'relations' and other such sentences which supposedly have them by functions which map to some objects / sentences we may interpret as true or false if we like.

Of course, this makes meta statements about the alphabet rather hard to make, but I'm not sure that's needed in the strictest sense either.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#60 Post by West Virginia Mule » 09 Jan 2010 23:54

t.a.j. wrote:We don't say World War Zwei, dear. We say Zweiter Weltkrieg!
My awareness of the zwei "word" comes soley from an old game I had called Panzer Dragoon Zwei II. People in-the-know on such things apparently said that the title was effectively reading as Panzer Dragoon 2 2. I, using my infinite powers of deduction, took that to mean that "zwei" was some foreign speak for the number 2.

Now back to dreaming about grandpa's glorious genocide. Dear.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#61 Post by Lord Borbak » 10 Jan 2010 20:24

Saw it last night in 3D and my...

I was well aware of all the hype the movie is receiving and all, so a part of me was a bit skeptical about it all. And I already knew about how the story itself was the usual Pocahontas stuff (natives vs invaders, one invader falls in love with a native and fight for them yada yada).

But...But it works. I can honestly say I was pleasently surprised by Avatar. Visually speaking, it's without a doubt the most beautiful movie I've ever seen. The story might not be original, but then, this fact becomes irrelevant since everything else is so stunning. It just works.

10/10
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#62 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 10 Jan 2010 20:32

If I want visuals I look up porn. The added forth dimension that films have make able the facilitation of 'story', and you shall use it, allāhu akbar.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#63 Post by Led Guardian » 11 Jan 2010 19:29

Lilyael wrote:
t.a.j. wrote:
Lilyael wrote:I thought it was a social statement on the Native Americans VS Red Commie Bastards
I'm sorry, I don't catch the irony. Are you serious and stupid or am I missing something?
you are missing something. Iwouldn't worry about it.

I saw this last night, was pleasantly entertained, can't say 3d added anything in particular, and it was rather cheesy in parts. The natives were almost portrayed as tree-hugging hippies. And there was the science question which we shouldn't get into as it's anal. But overall, well worth a watch :)
Yeah, it's best not to worry about the evolutionary basis for the biology. :P
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#64 Post by t.a.j. » 11 Jan 2010 20:19

Led Guardian wrote:
And there was the science question which we shouldn't get into as it's anal. But overall, well worth a watch :)
Yeah, it's best not to worry about the evolutionary basis for the biology. :P
What was wrong with that? I thought that the science question was the stable floating rocks and the whole mind transfer over any distance thing. The biology seemed particularly well done, espcially how certain patterns were repeated in the fauna, making it all seem like it was the result of evolution under similar circumstances from one ancestral life form.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#65 Post by Lilyael » 11 Jan 2010 21:11

yes i was referring to the floating rocks. And the fact that Pandora is the satellite of a giant gas ball, so where are the 5ooomph winds ? The tidal fuck-ups ?? The fact that there is water on the planet suggest oxygen, but apparently not enough for humans to breathe....and the instruments stop working next to those floating rocks ( which apparently float due to a high concentration of a particular metal, which also fucks up the instruments - but why aren't the vehicles not pasted to the rocks ?? That's how magnets work, isn't it ? ) I'm not even close to a scientist, but that strikes even me as odd......

i didn't see anything that the natives would want to eat, yet they have pointed canines for sinking into meat. you can't just design a weird looking alien, you have to explain why it looks like that.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#66 Post by t.a.j. » 11 Jan 2010 21:44

I thought it was clear that the Na'vi (what is the ' doing in that word anyway, it's not like the aliens would use latin script...) were predatory. Early in the movie, they show at least one species of herbivores that they could feed on.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#67 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 11 Jan 2010 22:41

Lilyael wrote:yes i was referring to the floating rocks. And the fact that Pandora is the satellite of a giant gas ball, so where are the 5ooomph winds ? The tidal fuck-ups ??
As far as i know we'd have those winds and much stronger other meteorological things as well if it wasn't thanks to our nice atmosphere.
The fact that there is water on the planet suggest oxygen, but apparently not enough for humans to breathe....
There are lots of gasses that make air toxic fro humans, no-one ever stated that the air there was exactly like it is here on earth.
and the instruments stop working next to those floating rocks ( which apparently float due to a high concentration of a particular metal, which also fucks up the instruments - but why aren't the vehicles not pasted to the rocks ?? That's how magnets work, isn't it ? ) I'm not even close to a scientist, but that strikes even me as odd......
metals not found on earth are not nessecarily magnets, nor do tehy have to have the exact same properties.
i didn't see anything that the natives would want to eat, yet they have pointed canines for sinking into meat. you can't just design a weird looking alien, you have to explain why it looks like that.
I remember a scene where they hunt an animal, and considering the prayers said while killing, it isn't exactly a kill just for fun. (as TAJ said)
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#68 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 12 Jan 2010 00:19

i'll tell you what's wrong with the evolution there:

that damn da-vinchi helicopter lizard!!

it seems to be able to extrude an auger for flying with... i'm ok with that, as strange as it maye seem.
what bothers me is that it spins it around really fast like it's on a free-wheeling axis...
ok, maybe it managed to biologically develop an axis bone that's able to spin freely, but it doesn't explain the fact that the creature spins it's rotor-screw above it's head without offering a counter-spin motion and without itsef spinnig under the sail.

ha! i have found inconsistencies in the mechanical works of the avatar universe and therefore exposed it to be a conspiracy of Obama to fake the panic of global warming. what?
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#69 Post by t.a.j. » 12 Jan 2010 00:44

Isn't that more of a basic physical problem rather than a strictly evolutionary problem?
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#70 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 12 Jan 2010 08:51

it's a lie, and therefore it is contrived by the untruthful propaganda that is evolution. :wink:
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#71 Post by Eintagsfliege » 12 Jan 2010 13:37

You gotta be kidding me. The story was absolutely awful and predictable from the very beginning. If you think that's a decent story, you've got the (lack of) taste and judgement of a juvenile. There was not a iota of original thought in the script, and the entire innovation and creativity the movie exudes stems from the visuals and the design of Pandora (which is admittedly eye candy). At one point in the movie (when the gathered military forces go into position in front of the huge home tree) the blatant (and unnecessary) evilness of the humans on Pandora transcends even the worst cliche usually visible in Blockbuster movies. The story doesn't even try to paint a diverse, let alone controversial, picture of who's wrong and who's right - the movie's conflict takes place on the mental level a 10 year old.

Image

You can like the movie, but not defend the story.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#72 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Jan 2010 13:53

Damn trolls.... but seriously, you expect decent originality for storylines from Hollywood??? Ha!
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#73 Post by Joost » 12 Jan 2010 14:04

Seems I'm going to see the movie next week or something.

I've never seen Pocahontas, so maybe I can be tricked into liking the story. :P
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We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#74 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Jan 2010 14:06

I am going to see it this week or next week also.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#75 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 12 Jan 2010 14:24

Globalizing plotlines is fun..

i think about 50% or more of the movies can be reduced to this:

-Guy meets girl
-something bad happens
-guy saves girl or girl saves guy
-they lived happily ever after
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#76 Post by Palantyre » 12 Jan 2010 17:04

Eintagsfliege wrote:You gotta be kidding me. The story was absolutely awful and predictable from the very beginning. If you think that's a decent story, you've got the (lack of) taste and judgement of a juvenile. There was not a iota of original thought in the script, and the entire innovation and creativity the movie exudes stems from the visuals and the design of Pandora (which is admittedly eye candy). At one point in the movie (when the gathered military forces go into position in front of the huge home tree) the blatant (and unnecessary) evilness of the humans on Pandora transcends even the worst cliche usually visible in Blockbuster movies. The story doesn't even try to paint a diverse, let alone controversial, picture of who's wrong and who's right - the movie's conflict takes place on the mental level a 10 year old.[/img]

You can like the movie, but not defend the story.
Fuck you.
We can defend the story all we want. I don't think anyone here has any delusions about the plot of Avatar. Yes, it's predictable, yes, it's clichéd, yes, it's extremely black and white. We know all that because we're not as fucking stupid as you in your pretentious little mind have envisioned. I for one have already seen the picture you posted, and honestly found it funny because it's so true.

Allow me to quote myself here: A complex and "original" plot has no intrinsic value, what really matters is how the plot is executed and the story told.
So yes, I realize completely that the movie "doesn't even try to paint a diverse, let alone controversial, picture of who's wrong and who's right". And I don't bloody care, because it can be enjoyed for just what it is; A beautiful while simple STORY, told with such passion and gusto that we, who haven't lost ourselves to cynicism and pretense, are simply whisked away. Not everything has to be deep and woven with intricacies. A lot of times a story is just a story.

This might be news to you; Grownups are also allowed to enjoy simple and innocent things. The fact that we enjoy things like Avatar does not make us any less intelligent, just as being all "mature" and only liking "deep" movies does not make you any better.

So go ahead and don't like the movie, I'm fine with that and I even understand why you don't.
But do not fucking come here acting all high and mighty to insult people's intelligence and taste, just because they don't mind going SQUEEEEE at a beautiful sci-fi fairytale.
People like different things, more "childish" things included. Deal with it.

EDIT: I realize this guy might be just a troll, but I wanted to rant a bit. You know, just in case he's not.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#77 Post by ThePKH » 12 Jan 2010 17:22

Maybe I should go and see this controversial art film. Some of the material I've seen(mainly in trailers) was jawdroppingly beautiful while some of the designs seem a bit cliched. I guess it's worth a finnkino x-mas gift ticket. :)
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#78 Post by Joost » 12 Jan 2010 19:13

Palantyre wrote:Allow me to quote myself here: A complex and "original" plot has no intrinsic value, what really matters is how the plot is executed and the story told.
So yes, I realize completely that the movie "doesn't even try to paint a diverse, let alone controversial, picture of who's wrong and who's right". And I don't bloody care, because it can be enjoyed for just what it is; A beautiful while simple STORY, told with such passion and gusto that we, who haven't lost ourselves to cynicism and pretense, are simply whisked away. Not everything has to be deep and woven with intricacies.
As far as I am concerned, the problem with black-and-white storylines is not that they are cliché, but that they (often subconsciously) convey a certain message that people are much less consciously aware of than they should be – a message of a simple, black-and-white, good-and-evil morality, that is.

People who want to propagandize like simple, beautiful and immersive, black-and-white storylines a lot, because this way, people can be tricked into believing in a simple black-and-white world, and can be lured into romanticizing the cause of the 'good guys' (whoever this may be).

In the end, almost every story has been told before and it can be sometimes goddamn difficult to come up with a fresh, new story. But somehow the fact that 'cliché storyline' and 'simple morality' are so connected that, in the eyes of some people they have almost become synonymous, is somewhat... scary to me.

This should not be considered as a criticism of Avatar, as I have not seen the movie yet, so I cannot judge how much and how badly it adheres to such a simple moral view. But I'm sure it can be used as a criticism for many, many movies.
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Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#79 Post by Andreas » 12 Jan 2010 19:14

What's the big deal with this movie? You guys make me wanna see it :?

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#80 Post by Palantyre » 12 Jan 2010 19:49

As far as I am concerned, the problem with black-and-white storylines is not that they are cliché, but that they (often subconsciously) convey a certain message that people are much less consciously aware of than they should be – a message of a simple, black-and-white, good-and-evil morality, that is.
I suppose there are people like that, who take such stories too seriously and think real life is black and white, as well. I personally hold said people responsible for that, not the stories. I'm quite aware that the world is full of different shades of grey. However, I also believe that black and white do exist as well, and conflicts between the two make for good storytelling material.

As for Avatar, I obviously can't know for sure what Cameron and the team have had in their minds, but I get the feeling the good vs. evil setup is quite deliberately exaggerated, making the movie feel almost like a fairytale of sorts. Although in this case the fairytale reflects something that basically has happened in our world (white man oppressing the shit out of native Americans and other "primitive" folk).
In the end, Avatar's message can pretty much be summed as "Opressing other people and robbing their stuff is bad." And I don't think that's such a bad reminder to give.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#81 Post by End Of An Era » 12 Jan 2010 19:51

ok, here's the big deal:
great special effects, great care in designing the fictional planet and its ecosystem.
people will say it has a great story, and is full of innuendo about caring for this planet, but forget the massive damage the production has delivered :P

big deal, yeah, big bank account for James Cameron!! :P

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#82 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 12 Jan 2010 22:32

my greatest problem with this movie is it's obvious lack of blue-alien-chick nipples. *grumble* :D
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#83 Post by End Of An Era » 12 Jan 2010 23:43

Jesus is into smurf pr0n??? :shock:

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#84 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 13 Jan 2010 00:11

hey.. smurfin was hot!!
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#85 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 13 Jan 2010 08:12

smurfette was a fucking stuck up bitch... i'm talking about giant blue chicks who ride dragons and shoot 6 foot arrows at people... and... have... TAILS!!!




oh, and another thing. about that whole neuro-connector baids that they connect to horses and dragons, no not about the stupidity of braids being neural pathways... my rant is about the fact that they have sex and not connect their sensy thingies, cuz that'd be fucking porn-worthy. :mrgreen:
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#86 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 13 Jan 2010 11:41

already looking forward to teh porn spoof of the movie
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#87 Post by Palantyre » 13 Jan 2010 13:56

Sleeping Dragon wrote:my greatest problem with this movie is it's obvious lack of blue-alien-chick nipples. *grumble* :D
I am quite positive Neytiri's nipples were visible in several scenes.
Or maybe I just imagined the whole thing... :?
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#88 Post by Eintagsfliege » 13 Jan 2010 14:02

Palantyre wrote:Fuck you.
As if I care.

Fact is, people in this topic were saying Avatar has a great story, while it absolutely hasn't. And that is not a matter of taste or intelligence; it's a matter of repetitive and predictable plot elements the mass audience has been exposed to for decades now. One would think that after feeding people for decades with the same old pie wrapped in pretty colours, they'd tire of it, but apparently not. The colours are getting prettier and prettier, but the pie remains the same old same old.
A complex and "original" plot has no intrinsic value, what really matters is how the plot is executed and the story told.
Wrong. An original idea is worth more than the skill to present it well, because the former is rare and the latter is not. A well-presented original idea is more appealing than a badly presented original idea, obiously, but that doesn't change the fact of which is harder to obtain.
Grownups are also allowed to enjoy simple things
You're mixing up the concept of simplicity with the lack of originality and creativity. Lack of originality results in a stale, dissatisfactory experience because "I have heard this story before"; see Avatar. However, simplicity is something else entirely. A new, fresh idea presented in a very accessible way can be simple, but is at the same time the embodiment of creativity; see Blair Witch Project f.e.
A beautiful while simple STORY, told with such passion and gusto that we, who haven't lost ourselves to cynicism and pretense, are simply whisked away.
Grats to being whisked away by the story of how harmony with oneself and one's surroundings is superior to greedy capitalism and egotism, surprisingly. For the 10th time.
The fact that we enjoy things like Avatar does not make us any less intelligent
Not less intelligent, but it displays rather modest expectations in the material you let yourself be entertained with. I don't have a problem with people enjoying mediocre or unimaginative movies or music or books; I have a problem with people who do that and then claim said mediocre material was great.
People like different things, more "childish" things included. Deal with it.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#89 Post by Mackasfour » 13 Jan 2010 14:12

Obvious troll is obvious. Aside from being a smug prick what else would you like here?
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#90 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 13 Jan 2010 14:34

Eintagsfliege wrote: Fact is, people in this topic were saying Avatar has a great story, while it absolutely hasn't. And that is not a matter of taste or intelligence; it's a matter of repetitive and predictable plot elements the mass audience has been exposed to for decades now. One would think that after feeding people for decades with the same old pie wrapped in pretty colours, they'd tire of it, but apparently not. The colours are getting prettier and prettier, but the pie remains the same old same old.

Wrong. An original idea is worth more than the skill to present it well, because the former is rare and the latter is not. A well-presented original idea is more appealing than a badly presented original idea, obiously, but that doesn't change the fact of which is harder to obtain.

You're mixing up the concept of simplicity with the lack of originality and creativity. Lack of originality results in a stale, dissatisfactory experience because "I have heard this story before"; see Avatar. However, simplicity is something else entirely. A new, fresh idea presented in a very accessible way can be simple, but is at the same time the embodiment of creativity; see Blair Witch Project f.e.

Grats to being whisked away by the story of how harmony with oneself and one's surroundings is superior to greedy capitalism and egotism, surprisingly. For the 10th time.

Not less intelligent, but it displays rather modest expectations in the material you let yourself be entertained with. I don't have a problem with people enjoying mediocre or unimaginative movies or music or books; I have a problem with people who do that and then claim said mediocre material was great.

Yes, and I am doing that by opening my mouth when dog food is hyped as top-quality food. Deal with it?
Interesting... All you are saying here is that you are the one to judge what is and is not good.

I find that a good movie, song, book, series or cd; can be watched, read or listened to a zillion times without getting old. Now if the same good story gets told differently every time, it becomes even more interesting because there are different details everytime that make the story itself different. An old story is not nessecarily a bad story. I find a bad story told in an awesome way a lot more entertaining than a great story told in a mediocre way. And the same goes for old and new; An old story retold in a great way has much more value for me than an original story told in a lousy way. I'm sure we all agree that an original story told in an awesome way is the best, but that is not a reason to dislike older stories.

The big question is not whether or not the story is original, but whether or not you like the story. I personally like Pocahontas, but I love Avatar. Because in Avatar the story gets told in a much more impressive way, I get sucked into the feelings of the characters a lot more than in Pocahontas. Has the story been told before? Yes. Does Avatar tell the story better? I'd say HELL YEAH!
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#91 Post by MarchOfTime » 13 Jan 2010 14:45

The big question is not whether or not the story is original, but whether or not you like the story. I personally like Pocahontas, but I love Avatar. Because in Avatar the story gets told in a much more impressive way, I get sucked into the feelings of the characters a lot more than in Pocahontas. Has the story been told before? Yes. Does Avatar tell the story better? I'd say HELL YEAH!
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#92 Post by t.a.j. » 13 Jan 2010 15:05

Lack of originality does not make a story bad and if it furthers consciousness of important ideas: imperialistic abuse and genocide, critique of corporations, ecological awareness, the beauty (and sanctity) of nature,...
And yeah, it uses a love story, a happy ending and many other tried tropes of hollywood to do that, but so what? It's much better than the next meaningless romantic comedy of suspense thriller.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#93 Post by Eintagsfliege » 13 Jan 2010 17:16

t.a.j. wrote:Lack of originality does not make a story bad and if it furthers consciousness of important ideas: imperialistic abuse and genocide, critique of corporations, ecological awareness, the beauty (and sanctity) of nature,...
How many more stories do we need that emphasise the evils of "imperialistic abuse and genocide, critique of corporations, ecological awareness, the beauty (and sanctity) of nature"? Because we've had those stories before and although I can see a somewhat heightened awareness towards those issues, I cannot see a fundamental change on the horizon because the majority of the people are trapped in their social and economical situation without much chance or will to sacrifice their current safety for change. If at all, the latest history has had a less critical perception of our leaders, and there have been fewer protests than in the much more politically active 70s. To me it mostly looks like these stories help romantise about a world people would like to be part of, but not really, because then they'd have to sacrifice their internet and their xbox and whatnot. It's very much like going to the church on Sunday, hearing the priest preach about helping your neighbour, and when it's over, people go back to their lives in which they despise their neighbours. A 'better' world? The idea usually is lovely. But really wanna live in it? Uhm... maybe not.
Mackasfour wrote:Obvious troll is obvious. Aside from being a smug prick what else would you like here?
Having a diffferent opinion and defending it. That surely makes me a troll.
Gandalf de Grijze wrote:Interesting... All you are saying here is that you are the one to judge what is and is not good.
I don't need to judge the story of Avatar as much as I don't need to judge 1+1=2. The story is predictable and has been told dozen times before (that is why everybody knows from the start what will happen). You cannot dispute it. And if that doesn't make it a stale experience for you, then your memory is severely lacking or your expectations are really low.

I'd like think one does go to the cinema to experience something you don't already know and thus can't predict the outcome of. If you don't, and you support the way with which lackluster, repetetive Hollywood blockbusters are recreated in slightly different settings to feed the viewers with the same stories all over again in 2 year cycles, then you're encouraging those capitalistic, money-centred Hollywood executives to keep doing what they're doing: maximise profit margins.
An old story is not nessecarily a bad story.
It definitely is not. But the dozenth time you hear a story in another setting, you should wake up and realise that life's too short to hear the same stuff over and over. It's as if somebody read the Lord of the Rings and thinks it's the best book ever. Fair enough, it rocks. But then he goes and reads the same story again and again in other settings: SF, Old Greece, fictional USA after having lost WWII, France during the revolution, the American natives, written by hacks who profit from the original's success... for what purpose? What new is there to learn with the same story over and over again? The message it sends is the same each time. You're not going to be surprised, you're not being offered new insights.
The big question is not whether or not the story is original, but whether or not you like the story.
No, that's not the big question. Because even your favourite dish gets boring f you eat it daily, no matter how well it's been prepared.

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#94 Post by ThePKH » 13 Jan 2010 17:51

Exactly how many times does it take for a story-already-told to get boring these days?
I don't know if you realize it but people are different on this. Many are not even the slightest bothered about how many times they see nearly the same story retold and are quite happy with it. It doesn't mean the said people aren't interested to hear new, original stories also. So it really doesn't feel right to blame them for "lacking memory" or having "low expectations", when in most other cases it's not even true. I also don't buy the corporate cash-in side of the debate. Most of the stuff that is being told again and again in different settings is at least partly way older than the entertainment industry and people of different cultural backgrounds have their own versions...
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#95 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 13 Jan 2010 17:56

Eintagsfliege wrote:
The big question is not whether or not the story is original, but whether or not you like the story.
No, that's not the big question. Because even your favourite dish gets boring f you eat it daily, no matter how well it's been prepared.
Ah, so you presume that I watch this same type of movie every day? Or at least that I watch the very same storytype everytime I watch a movie. I eat my favorite dish about once every 2 weeks I guess, I watch my favorite movies about once every 2 months. I get tired of neither. Plus the overgeneralisation is totally unwarranted.
I find the story nice and entertaining, because I don't watch too many movies with said storyelements. Hell, I only go to the cinema once or twice a year. Last time I saw Pocahontas was at least 15 years ago, so while watching the story felt new. And sure.. we all agree that the storylines are almost entirely identical, but how you like or dislike the movie is not a matter of facts, just opinions. So, maybe you could put that "my way or the highway" attitude you are using, in some dark bottomless pit. And maybe then you can discuss opinions as what they are: opinions.
I'm going to make an assumption here, and I can be wrong. But from your fierce comments, I would conclude that you watch just about every movie that comes out. Maybe you should cut back on the movies, if you are bored of those stories. Because, lets face it, in the general lines of the stories, you can't really find much originality, can you? I would dare to put a sizable sum of money on a bet that states that within the next decade there will be no more than 4 completely original plotlines in movies. And I think that is being quite optimistic.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#96 Post by Palantyre » 13 Jan 2010 18:12

Eintagsfliege wrote:
Palantyre wrote:A complex and "original" plot has no intrinsic value, what really matters is how the plot is executed and the story told.
Wrong. An original idea is blah blah blahblah.
No, not wrong. It's my view of the issue. It's how it is for ME. You have your view, and I accept that; what I don't accept is you trying to argue that my view is inferior or false.
the story is predictable and has been told dozen times before (that is why everybody knows from the start what will happen). You cannot dispute it.
We're not disputing it. I for one emphasized several times that I'm fully aware of the plot of Avatar being predictable and old and whatever. And a lot of people in this thread has also acknowledged it. We just enjoy it regardless.
But the dozenth time you hear a story in another setting, you should wake up and realise that life's too short to hear the same stuff over and over.
I think WE have the authority to decide which stories we want to hear during our lives. Not you.
What new is there to learn with the same story over and over again? The message it sends is the same each time. You're not going to be surprised, you're not being offered new insights.
Watching a few movies that maybe have the same basic story take a few measly hours of our lives of several dozen years. I think that leaves plenty of time to learn things and receive new insights. And again, it's not your business to dictate what other people should do with their time.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#97 Post by End Of An Era » 13 Jan 2010 18:20

@eintagsfliege: your day is over. let it rest man, you think the story sucked, fine for you. but don't force everyone to look at it from your point of view. For your personal enjoyment, think of it that the masses are always dumb or whatever :roll:

take yourself less seriously man, for your own health and the enjoyment of the entire forum, please?

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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#98 Post by Joost » 13 Jan 2010 18:30

ThePKH wrote:I also don't buy the corporate cash-in side of the debate. Most of the stuff that is being told again and again in different settings is at least partly way older than the entertainment industry and people of different cultural backgrounds have their own versions...
Very true. A lot of the modern 'clichés' in movies, are hardly modern at all. Back in 1949, Joseph Campbell wrote his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces, an comparive mythological account of heroic fiction throughout history and mythology, in which certain archetypes are described that return time and again in heroic fiction.

Much later, moviemakers have actually read Campbell's book, and used it as an inspiration for their own movies. George Lucas was, with Star Wars, the first to publicly credit Campbell, but many more have followed him, ranging from Disney studios to Stanley Kubrick. And many more stories, including stories such as The Lord of the Rings, fulfil many of Campbell's archetypal descriptions without being directly influenced by them. You can have a look at this Monomyth checklist, and fill it in point-by-point with events and character from The Lord of the Rings. Does that make The Lord of the Rings a bad or lousy story? Don't think so!

Author Neil Gaiman, while admitting to falling into some of the archetypal patterns and elements as described by Campbell, also said:
I think I got about half way through The Hero with a Thousand Faces and found myself thinking if this is true — I don’t want to know. I really would rather not know this stuff. I’d rather do it because it’s true and because I accidentally wind up creating something that falls into this pattern than be told what the pattern is.
So, in a sense, it seems these archetypes are almost impossible to avoid. And one may, of course, wonder why they should be avoided at all. Fiction has, throughout history, been defined at least partially by common structures that were sometimes prescribed, and more often just adhered to: classic Greek tragedies, and Shakespeare's plays both fit perfectly in this category.

From Gilgamesh to the Odyssey to Beowulf to The Lord of the Rings to Star Wars to Lion King to Harry Potter – all of these stories use many of the same stock, or archetypal, elements*. And while you can (and some people do) accuse Star Wars, Lion King, or Harry Potter of being bland commercial entertainment, a rehashing of older, better, stories; it is hard to claim a similar thing about Gilgamesh, the Odyssey, Beowulf, or The Lord of the Rings. And yet these stories all share the same archetypal roots.


And if you really want originality and depth in movies, you'd be better off watching movies by directors such as Tarkovsky, Bergman, or Fassbinder, rather than any mainstream/Hollywood movie (save perhaps Lynch or Kubrick). Mainstream movies generally are made at least partly to entertain, and with a big audience in mind. Personally sometimes I just prefer to be entertained, and someitmes I prefer something more thoughtful and deep -- and hence I watch both types of movies. Expecting mainstream movies to be groundbreaking on a story-level, though, seems to be quite pointless to me (unless there is a special reason to do so, which, in the case of Avatar, there isn't).


*This should, of course, not be considered as me saying that I place all of those stories on equal footing. The Odyssey and The Lord of the Rings are, for me, among the greatest stories I ever read, stories I want to re-read time and again, and marvel at the power and fantastic greatness of them each time anew; whereas the other four stories, for me, were much less impressive (although I have to admit I never read the Potter books -- only saw the movies). But that's just my personal opinion, and not really related to the argument I want to make.
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#99 Post by Led Guardian » 13 Jan 2010 22:45

About the science:

1) I definitely had a problem with the gyro-lizard or whatever. That seems a completely impractical evolutionary trait. Isn't it a little difficult to escape predators when you can't really see where you're going? Also, I'm not convinced that that would even keep it elevated.
2) Six legs. Not impossible for large creatures, however: Pandora is supposed to have lower gravity than Earth, and extra legs are developed when extra support is needed, such as in higher gravity situations. The mechanics also seemed a bit strange with the front legs clustered together. Again, not impossible, but kind of impractical it seems to me.
3) In regards to the inability of the humans to breath despite the sure presence of oxygen, that's quite simple and realistic. Considering that there is so much vegetation, there is most likely a very large amount of oxygen, such as was present on Earth during prehistoric times. Oxygen, however, is a toxic substance that animal life on Earth has evolved to breathe. If the partial pressure of oxygen (its pressure if it alone occupied a volume) is too high, it becomes toxic to humans. This can cause symptoms such as muscular spasms, breathing troubles, seizures, vision problems, etc.
4) I would love to hear how mountains could float. I chalk this up to the fiction part of science fiction, but if there is at least a plausible pseudo-scientific explanation, I would love to hear it. It certainly looks awesome. :)

*insert discussion on black and white in fantasy and its relation to a gray reality that I'm too tired to write right now*
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Re: Avatar (the movie, not forum avatars)

#100 Post by End Of An Era » 13 Jan 2010 23:09

Led Guardian wrote:4) I would love to hear how mountains could float. I chalk this up to the fiction part of science fiction, but if there is at least a plausible pseudo-scientific explanation, I would love to hear it. It certainly looks awesome. :)
Magnetism maybe? in combination with a hollow rock? filled with vacuum? :P
On a more serious note: geostationary orbit could be an option.

I was kind of disappointed the Na'vi had front-bending knees, it's both too humanoid and inefficient. For the agile way they move, rear-bending knees would be more practical.

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