A question about Thorn in NIME

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Mahoora
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A question about Thorn in NIME

#1 Post by Mahoora » 30 Mar 2011 01:06

Having recently finished reading the Silmarillion, I didn't get from which chapter comes the song Thorn and actually I didn't find any kind of "Edge of Thorns" in the book but it could be from my own understanding that it's a general description of the state of Middle Earth after the triumph of Morgoth which was all about darkness and misery

Any help from someone?
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Dentarthurdent
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Re: A question about Thorn in NIME

#2 Post by Dentarthurdent » 30 Mar 2011 11:47

I think it was about Maglor and his betrayal of Gondolin.
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Re: A question about Thorn in NIME

#3 Post by jouzinka » 30 Mar 2011 12:01

Maeglin. :wink:

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Re: A question about Thorn in NIME

#4 Post by Edain » 30 Mar 2011 13:11

The whole last verse makes it quite clear - "I'm lost in the depth of his eyes, I can't flee" [...] "Betrayed by my love and my enemies" - Maeglin being brought before Morgoth himself, of course he feels betrayed by Idril - she doesn't love him.
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Mahoora
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Re: A question about Thorn in NIME

#5 Post by Mahoora » 30 Mar 2011 22:58

Thanks everyone
All those plans and hopes and dreams what happens to them? it's only a handfull of the lucky ones who can look back and say that they even came close.
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Nahar
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Re: A question about Thorn in NIME

#6 Post by Nahar » 18 Apr 2011 00:25

Oh!
I'm just about to give my lecture about NiME and the Silmarillion, so I'm really happy to see that there's still interest here in the albums lyrics.

The guys are right, of course - it's about Maeglin.
Here's what Hansi said in an old interview I found when he describes each song in short:
"The eighth song speaks of Maeglin, who enters the hidden vale of Tumladen to join the forces of Gondolin and about the wish the new High King of the Noldor, Fingon, to rediscover the way to the Blessed Kingdom."

To be honest, I'm not sure about the second part - actually I'm almost sure it's some kind of a mistake, as Fingon did not try to rediscover that way...

But anyway, I'd like to share some thoughts about Thorn.
First, there's The Dark Elf that comes before "A dark seed of evil is grown" - that one line with this title already has some interesting meaning - the Dark Elf was how Eol, Maeglin's father, was called, but the chapter "of Maeglin" ends with the sentence "Thus it was in Gondolin; and amid all the bliss of that realm, while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown." So already Hansi confuses us on several levels - He's talking about Maeglin, but giving him the nickname of his father. And Maeglin was indeed very much like his father: "As Maeglin grew to full stature he resembled in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor, but in mood and mind he was the son of his father. His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those that withstood him. He was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark, yet bright and keen as the eyes of the Noldor, and his skin was white."
Thorn also deals a bit with this resemblance and its meaning I think. Especially their deaths - both died more or less in the same way being thrown from high places. I'd say that the "song of death" is Eol's curse when he cries to his son: "So you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I." or before that when he chooses death for both of them and aims a poisoned javelin at him.

In the concept stories after the lyrics in the booklet there's something related that would show some of the ideas Hansi had about Maeglin (the concept stories are more or less a diary from Maglor, Feanor's son's, perspective): "It was about the same time when, in the faraway woods we called the Dark Forest, the Son Of Disaster was born. Never we spoke to one another. Yet we shared the same fate - the fate of traitors. His every inside longed for light and love, yet he was to bring nothing but mischief to both. Under the surface of his noble appearance lay undetected and well protected the seed of evil, slowly growing."

I was also quite troubled with "Edge of Thorns" and found no clear explanation. The only other place it appears in that I know of is a Savatage album and song, but it doesn't help much. Dawn might be related to the fact that the fall of Gondolin happened when they had a festival where they greeted the sun at dawn. I think that Maeglin praying at the edge of thorns might be related to him trying to avoid his father's curse and fate, who was thrown off a precipice which might be considered a sort of a thorn. There his father died, which could've meant hope for him, but there he was also cursed.
I guess the part in the concept stories makes the general idea of the song clear - Maeglin was born in the darkness and yearned for light (he and his mother went in the forest "seeking the sunlight" even before they left for Gondolin) - he didn't his fate, but couldn't avoid it. This matter of fate is something BG deals with a lot.

I didn't mention it, but of course there's the reference to Morgoth (who also had lots of issues with fate, as other songs tell us) promising to end Maeglin's pain and to Idril.
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

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