The Official President Obama Discussion Topic

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Led Guardian
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#151 Post by Led Guardian » 06 Nov 2008 23:52

ThePKH wrote:
Led Guardian wrote:He's sturdy. He can take it.
Well, at least don't slap it in the head. We wouldn't want to make the mule any more bald than it already is.
I'd slap it on the rump, but it might kick me.

(And now I've claimed the page for Obama!)
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#152 Post by Sarah » 07 Nov 2008 17:41

Dreamland turned to realland and we faced a new frontier
We lost the world
Sometimes we hold it but it's slipping away
When we add reality it doesn't taste like our dream

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#153 Post by Wicked Child » 07 Nov 2008 18:54

Joost wrote:
Wicked Child wrote:
Omega Mule wrote:voodoo-dancing in their AIDS-infected jungles to celebrate the results of this election, it can’t be a good thing for us.
In other times I would take you as the average north american. What a relief. A country that elected a progressist candidate is definately not represented by racist people like you. Hope the world can now have some peace from your hatred.
*lends Wicked Child his own (half-dysfunctional) sarcasm detector -- it may be of some use to him*
Alright... now sarcasm is an excuse for being radical racist without taking any risks of being falmed back? Come on..

Besides it, racism has it's own particular way of sarcasm. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be fought back.

Racism is unacceptable, wether it is Htler or a mule trying to spread it.
You're going to hell. But not the cool one, that's where I'll go.
You go to the crappy hell.

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#154 Post by Wicked Child » 07 Nov 2008 18:55

oh.. btw, I was being sarcastic too.. in my own particular way :wink:
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#155 Post by West Virginia Mule » 07 Nov 2008 21:18

I am truly sorry for the misunderstanding. To that end, I promise to never spread my message of hatred and racism again. Scout's honor. I've put a little love in my heart.

And the woooorld will be a better place!
And the woooorld will be a better place!
For you...and me!
You just wait...and see!
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#156 Post by Led Guardian » 07 Nov 2008 22:18

'Nowhere has this renunciation of man's transience been more joyous or uplifting than in the medium of airport carpets.'

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#157 Post by Sarah » 08 Nov 2008 01:55

Indeed it's a really nice one :)
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We lost the world
Sometimes we hold it but it's slipping away
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#158 Post by ThePKH » 08 Nov 2008 10:50

A bit old already but still great: http://www.macguff.fr/goomi/unspeakable/vault275.html :lol:
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#159 Post by West Virginia Mule » 08 Nov 2008 13:11

Two things we can all take from this election:

1. Anyone who did not vote for Obama is a racist. What other reason could they have for doing so? Is it possible for someone to have not liked Obama for reasons other than his race? No. Passing up the black person for the white person to fill any job posting is always a case of racism. Case closed.

2. Everyone who voted for Obama was well-informed on his polices and stances on issues, and no one voted for him simply because he is black. And if there were people who voted for him just because he is black, that’s still not a case or racism. Rather, it’s justice.
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#160 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 08 Nov 2008 16:11

cool :lol:
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#161 Post by SomeEurosHateAmerica » 10 Nov 2008 17:49

Omega Mule wrote:Two things we can all take from this election:

1. Anyone who did not vote for Obama is a racist. What other reason could they have for doing so? Is it possible for someone to have not liked Obama for reasons other than his race? No. Passing up the black person for the white person to fill any job posting is always a case of racism. Case closed.

2. Everyone who voted for Obama was well-informed on his polices and stances on issues, and no one voted for him simply because he is black. And if there were people who voted for him just because he is black, that’s still not a case or racism. Rather, it’s justice.
Hey Omega, I voted for Obama, but I totally am on your side in this thread. I understand that your voodoo dancing African comment was a snide joke-like remark that wasn't necessarily racist. Let's be honest. Did Africans celebrate Obama's presidency? Yes. Are many of their countries "AIDS infested"? Yes. You really didn't say anything that wasn't true.

Like I said, I voted for Obama. But I'm also willing to admit that many people who also voted for him did so simply because he was black. Do I think this is racism. No. The strict definition of racism is harboring beliefs that claim one race is inherently superior/inferior to another. I don't think black people voted for Obama because they think blacks, in general, are superior to whites (although some surely did). On the other hand, I still think there are segments of society who voted against Obama because they do believe his race makes him inferior. This is just my opinion.

But, I digress. I respect your opinion on the matter and your raise some valid concerns. Most of the people who are attacking you are Europeans or South Americans anyway. How much do we care about their politics? Just snicker at the fact that they are even investing their time in caring about how we vote. No matter what they think, Obama is OUR president and, like every single American president before him, he will not hesitate to throw Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa under the bus if it furthers America's interest in some way. They don't know what they're celebrating. They see a black guy leading the most powerful country and the world, they compare him to Bush and say, alright, finally a president who cares about us. This is simply naivety. Europeans can't vote in American elections. Sorry. Obama doesn't care about them.

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#162 Post by Skyclad » 10 Nov 2008 17:59

Omega Mule wrote:Two things we can all take from this election:

1. Anyone who did not vote for Obama is a racist. What other reason could they have for doing so? Is it possible for someone to have not liked Obama for reasons other than his race? No. Passing up the black person for the white person to fill any job posting is always a case of racism. Case closed.

2. Everyone who voted for Obama was well-informed on his polices and stances on issues, and no one voted for him simply because he is black. And if there were people who voted for him just because he is black, that’s still not a case or racism. Rather, it’s justice.
Most of my buddy's that voted McCain told me straight out "Fuck that nigger". No, not all white people voted against him because of race, but a lot of people did.

I knew Obama's policies. I like his green energy policies (also creating jobs with alternate energy), I like his ideals on clsiing NAFTA/CAFTA loopholes, like his idea of giving $3,000.00 to employers for every Aerican job they create. Also, even if no one knew his policies, all you had to know is that McCain voted with Bush almost all the time. We didn't need 4 or 8 years more of that. Also, Palin is bat-shit crazy. Like you.
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#163 Post by Orodaran » 10 Nov 2008 19:45

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:I respect your opinion on the matter and your raise some valid concerns. Most of the people who are attacking you are Europeans or South Americans anyway. How much do we care about their politics? Just snicker at the fact that they are even investing their time in caring about how we vote. No matter what they think, Obama is OUR president and, like every single American president before him, he will not hesitate to throw Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa under the bus if it furthers America's interest in some way. They don't know what they're celebrating. They see a black guy leading the most powerful country and the world, they compare him to Bush and say, alright, finally a president who cares about us. This is simply naivety. Europeans can't vote in American elections. Sorry. Obama doesn't care about them.
It's not that we think that Obama can care for "us" - like if "us" are poor peasants who are inferior to the Almighty and Onnipotent Land of the Free and Home of the Brave and pray for the King to toss a coin to us - we think that Obama won't be a total moron like his predecessor who, may I remind you, destroyed the US credibility in front of the world and made them look like an arrogant and warmongering world police.

The US, until the further rise of China, is the only current world superpower - which does NOT equal to US americans having a longest dick, nor that the US is the best nation of the world, nor that the entire world feels a peasant in need of care of the One and Only King. But if said superpower is led by an intelligent and honest person, things could be a tiny bit better (for example, take a look at economy - I'm no expert on that field and surely I don't know about Obama's plans, but if the US markets stop going down, maybe the rest of the world will benefit from that as well. This has nothing to do with the US being the Almighty and the rest of the world being the Unworthy).

Oh, and I trust Obama won't be one that "will not hesitate to throw Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa under the bus if it furthers America's interest in some way". If you wanted a president like that, you should have rooted for Bush to be elected for a third term regardless of the rules, he seemed quite the man for you.

The quite unlikely day Italy becomes a global superpower, I want it to be the beacon of the world and a responsable nation, not a nation that would go "ahr ahr ahr we have the longest dick and we're the best and we can nuke you all to kingdom come ahr ahr ahr", like you seem to want Obama to do to reassure you.

Do you want to live in a nation that would destroy the entire world just because they could? I want a "yes" or "no" answer on this, please.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
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#164 Post by SomeEurosHateAmerica » 10 Nov 2008 20:22

Orodaran wrote:
It's not that we think that Obama can care for "us" - like if "us" are poor peasants who are inferior to the Almighty and Onnipotent Land of the Free and Home of the Brave and pray for the King to toss a coin to us - we think that Obama won't be a total moron like his predecessor who, may I remind you, destroyed the US credibility in front of the world and made them look like an arrogant and warmongering world police.
OK, I agree with just about everything you said here. Not really sure why you said it to me though. I happen to think having other countries like America is quite good for America too.
The US, until the further rise of China, is the only current world superpower - which does NOT equal to US americans having a longest dick, nor that the US is the best nation of the world, nor that the entire world feels a peasant in need of care of the One and Only King. But if said superpower is led by an intelligent and honest person, things could be a tiny bit better (for example, take a look at economy - I'm no expert on that field and surely I don't know about Obama's plans, but if the US markets stop going down, maybe the rest of the world will benefit from that as well. This has nothing to do with the US being the Almighty and the rest of the world being the Unworthy).
These are also valid statements. Clearly an Obama presidency might have a trickle down affect that benefits you some.
Oh, and I trust Obama won't be one that "will not hesitate to throw Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa under the bus if it furthers America's interest in some way"
This is where I lose you. Why do you think this? So you think that if Obama was placed in a situation where he had to make a decision that would totally screw over your country, but benefit the United States a ton, he wouldn't do it? I'm not talking about all out war here, I'm talking about anything related to the Economy. Every US president looks out for his own first. If our fates are tied together in some way, Obama will probably have no problem helping your country out in some way. If it comes to making a sacrifice on your behalf, however, it's not going to happen. It never has, it never will.
If you wanted a president like that, you should have rooted for Bush to be elected for a third term regardless of the rules, he seemed quite the man for you.
No, because Bush DIDN'T help America. Making all the other countries hate you puts you in a pretty crappy situation. Bush was a terrible diplomat. Obama is a great diplomat. He can push his own agenda with rhetoric. It only plays into his hands that the rest of the world jumped up and down with joy after he got elected. It puts him in a popular position, which means other diplomats are going to be more likely to give into his requests. Is he essentially after the same thing as Bush, though: US prosperity? Absolutely. Bush just happened to be a moron. Obama knows how to work people, which in a global economy is a far more important skill than being able to rattle a sabre.
The quite unlikely day Italy becomes a global superpower, I want it to be the beacon of the world and a responsable nation, not a nation that would go "ahr ahr ahr we have the longest dick and we're the best and we can nuke you all to kingdom come ahr ahr ahr", like you seem to want Obama to do to reassure you.
I had to laugh at this paragraph because it's so ironic coming from someone from Italy. You see, all those things you hate about America we learned straight from your ancestors. Romans thought they had the biggest dicks too, and they bragged about it often. They also threatened to "nuke" everyone around them, except their equivalent of "nuke" was invade and crush anyone who stood against them. So yes, your Italian Peninsula taught the western world the art of being a huge dick and super power. Thanks, we could have done it without your ancestors setting the example.
Do you want to live in a nation that would destroy the entire world just because they could? I want a "yes" or "no" answer on this, please.
Yes. Of course I want to destroy the entire world just because. I don't see how that could backfire on me!

Seriously, though. I would like the whole world to be really happy. I wish everyone had enough to eat, everyone had access to doctors, and there was no racism or prejudice of any kind. Unfortunately, I live in the real world. And I happen to think that the US still IS the greatest country on earth when it comes to providing opportunity and social mobility. If anything, the fact that Obama, a son to a Kenyan immigrant, a biracial person with a non-traditional name could rise to leader of the most powerful country in the world based on merit, supports this belief. This couldn't have happened in Spain. This couldn't have happened in France. This couldn't have happened in the UK. This is a story that could ONLY have happened in America. Therefore, if America provides the best opportunity and the most social mobility out of all nations, I believe it should be valued above all nations. Am I totally bias about this because I'm an American. Yeah, obviously I am. But I know a lot of immigrants, a history professor from Spain for instance who, after coming to America and comparing it to Spain, had no choice but to acknowledge that he wouldn't of had a fraction of the success he's had in his home country.

I challenge you to name one place on earth with more opportunties for social mobility than the United States. Tell me one other place where the son of an immigrant could attain wealth, success, and become the leader of that country in less than a generation.

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#165 Post by Orodaran » 10 Nov 2008 20:32

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:This is where I lose you. Why do you think this? So you think that if Obama was placed in a situation where he had to make a decision that would totally screw over your country, but benefit the United States a ton, he wouldn't do it? I'm not talking about all out war here, I'm talking about anything related to the Economy. Every US president looks out for his own first. If our fates are tied together in some way, Obama will probably have no problem helping your country out in some way. If it comes to making a sacrifice on your behalf, however, it's not going to happen. It never has, it never will.
Well, if you put it like this, I have to agree with you - but this is different than what you said before, that made me think indeed of an hypothetical example of an all out war :wink:

And yeah, what you say about Obama being able to become a president while in a time in which my father had my age he should have watched very carefully on which benches to sit and which busses to take is only true, and quite nice as well - which is one more reason to hope that the nicer things about USA will get recognized in the world, after too many years in which only the worst ones were made very well aware by Bush....
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#166 Post by West Virginia Mule » 10 Nov 2008 22:04

I am an internet forum anomaly in that I consider my own opinions of so little worth anymore that I rarely express them. I have for some time, instead, experimented with presenting to this forum the ideas and ideals of those I interact with: the people I work with, the people living around me, whatever. That voice is never heard on a European metal band forum, and mixing it in usually yields interesting and sometimes explosive results. I’m often accused of over-the-top sarcasm, when in fact I’m doing nothing of the kind. I’m simply, for example, giving you word-for-word opinions that I‘d just heard at work that day, etc. I understand that without clarifying it and attributing these words and ideas to someone else I take responsibility for them in many peoples’ eyes and I accept that. It’s a stylistic choice, and also one made for maximum effect. I know who I am and what I believe, but spewing my own limited and uneducated regurgitation all over the internet usually serves little purpose. I’d rather assume another identity when it comes to matters of this sort (i.e. politics, race, etc.) just to see how people react. My whole life is spent in the middle of these people and it’s the only thing I know. You are my window on the world and it’s usually a valuable learning experience to read what you have to say. If I offend some of you through my methodology, it’s unfortunate and entirely my fault. There are some words I should never say, regardless of the purpose for doing so. Because I have nothing to say myself and nothing meaningful to contribute, I stir the waters with others’ words. It could be said what I do serves no purpose, and I’d have to agree with that now.

West Virginia, Kentucky, western Pennsylvania, eastern Ohio—this enter Ohio valley I live in—is an extremely racist culture. I’m talking old time, uncompromised, ingrained racism on a grass roots level that’s as immobile and unyielding as stone. I live in a small, poor, nondescript Ohio River town with no diversity and a mindset a hundred years old. There are many reasons why I thought I’d never come back home, but where else do you go when you get lost? Home. This is home, and I’ve done my best to integrate and make it work here. But the truth is I hate it all and always have, and for various reasons both macro and micro, no overriding one thing. While I cannot claim to be 100% altruistic, one thing I can claim is that I’m not a racist—at least not in the sense of most living here in the Ohio Valley. No one is perfect, and the years have beaten some tough realizations into me, but what I am is not what these people are. But I cannot have a voice here, I have to integrate, have to make it a good place for my family to live in. Since I cannot make my voice heard, I bring their voices to you and some small amount of pressure is released by doing so. It’s a flawed concept, admittedly, and one I’ll likely pursue little in the future. Although I realize the damage is done, I did not intend to spread harmful words or concepts, only to expose them.

I did not vote for McCain. However, I did not vote for Obama either. I knew the writing was on the wall in West Virginia. We’re not ready for that yet. Yes, we. This is home and I'll stand with them, and hopefully someday things will begin to change.
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#167 Post by Led Guardian » 10 Nov 2008 22:15

I don't think Obama would do something to help America at the expense of the rest of the world for the simple reason that in a globally interconnected world like ours, what hurts one of the major nations hurts the others in the long run. If Obama screwed Europe over, it would eventually come back and bite us in the ass. Also, I think that Obama is a good person, and as such would hesitate to simply crush another country just to help our own get ahead. There are actually people who care about others. I certainly wouldn't consign a nation to oblivion to help my own make a few more bucks.

Just a thought to relieve the growing cynicism on this topic.
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#168 Post by ThePKH » 10 Nov 2008 22:49

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:If anything, the fact that Obama, a son to a Kenyan immigrant, a biracial person with a non-traditional name could rise to leader of the most powerful country in the world based on merit, supports this belief.
I wonder what would've happened if he was an atheist though, or gay... :P
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#169 Post by Orodaran » 10 Nov 2008 22:52

ThePKH wrote:
SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:If anything, the fact that Obama, a son to a Kenyan immigrant, a biracial person with a non-traditional name could rise to leader of the most powerful country in the world based on merit, supports this belief.
I wonder what would've happened if he was an atheist though, or gay... :P
Touchè! 8)
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#170 Post by ThePKH » 11 Nov 2008 15:51

Leave it to George Carlin to point out that there is also a problem about how there's also a problem with all the opportunities in USA:

"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem."

:lol:
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#171 Post by SomeEurosHateAmerica » 11 Nov 2008 18:14

ThePKH wrote:Leave it to George Carlin to point out that there is also a problem about how there's also a problem with all the opportunities in USA:

"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem."

:lol:
George Carlin was a great comedian, not a political authority. The truth is not anyone can become president. Most of the time, this person comes from an educated background. Half of all US presidents were lawyers. The point is that anyone has the opportunity to pursue whatever path they may choose in America. Your sarcasm does nothing to change the notion that almost any other country in the world could never provide the opportunity for social mobility at the level of the US.

As for your "gay" and "atheist" comment, good job in pointing out that America isn't perfect. All I have to say is "give it time". Nobody thought a black man could be elected until it happened. Someday a gay man or woman is going to come along and break down that barrier as well, probably much sooner than most may think. How many Finnish politicians are first generation citizens?

Many Americans are fat, lazy, ungrateful, and ignorant. Of this, I have no doubt. But the US is not about the collective, it's about what is attainable for the individual. As Obama has said "our higher institutions are the envy of the world..."

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#172 Post by Skyclad » 11 Nov 2008 21:04

Omega Mule wrote:
Skyclad wrote:John Adams
Jeez, I wish someone would make a cable TV documentary about him.
If they do, there's this up and coming actor named Pawl Geeomaddi that would fit the role perfectly.
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#173 Post by t.a.j. » 11 Nov 2008 21:06

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:Your sarcasm does nothing to change the notion that almost any other country in the world could never provide the opportunity for social mobility at the level of the US.
...new research using comparable coding shows that the United States is at the median in terms of opportunity: lower than the most open nations, such as Sweden, Canada, and Norway; but higher than the more rigid nations, such as West Germany, Ireland, or Portugal. Other research suggests that Italy, France, and Great Britain are among the other societies that now display the lowest comparative mobility rates.
from:
http://www.futureofchildren.org/informa ... _id=389282

page 6 of 8.

Granted, Obama is a very positive example, but he also seems to be very smart, charismatic and a gifted communicator.
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#174 Post by Led Guardian » 11 Nov 2008 21:54

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:But the US is not about the collective, it's about what is attainable for the individual.
That's not necessarily the ideal. There should be a balance between the two. You shouldn't make life all about everyone else and ignore yourself, but neither should you be so self-centered that you never take the greater good into consideration. That's the biggest problem with Americans right now. No one wants to help others because they want everything for themselves. Individualism and collectivism should always be balanced. Help others, but never lose yourself.
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#175 Post by ThePKH » 11 Nov 2008 22:10

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:As for your "gay" and "atheist" comment, good job in pointing out that America isn't perfect. All I have to say is "give it time". Nobody thought a black man could be elected until it happened. Someday a gay man or woman is going to come along and break down that barrier as well, probably much sooner than most may think. How many Finnish politicians are first generation citizens?
Finland didn't even have any notable amount of immigration earlier than 1990's. And still we're one of the last in Europe on amount of immigrants/population. t.a.j. pointed out that opportunities are high in several European countries, and like in fellow nordics Sweden and Norway (which are often culturally and socially very close) I think it's possible here as well. But we have so small numbers of immigrants and very rarely are they politically active so we haven't had too many. To compare situation here with some country that has 60 times our population and greater history of immigration is a bit futile. Thus it's hard to say if that'd happen in here. At the very least, in your words: we'll just have to "give it time".
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#176 Post by SomeEurosHateAmerica » 12 Nov 2008 01:35

t.a.j. wrote:
...new research using comparable coding shows that the United States is at the median in terms of opportunity: lower than the most open nations, such as Sweden, Canada, and Norway; but higher than the more rigid nations, such as West Germany, Ireland, or Portugal. Other research suggests that Italy, France, and Great Britain are among the other societies that now display the lowest comparative mobility rates.
from:
http://www.futureofchildren.org/informa ... _id=389282

page 6 of 8.

Granted, Obama is a very positive example, but he also seems to be very smart, charismatic and a gifted communicator.
This is actually an awesome study. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. It does point out that the weak public education system in America minimizes cases where people low-income people rise to high-income status.

However, this is very different than saying social mobility is not POSSIBLE. Keep in mind that the US has a huge sample of first generation immigrants to consider. With enormous population growth, comes a skewed sample. Obviously the poor tend to remain poor and the super rich tend to remain super rich.

This raises an important distinction. It is not my belief that a nation should be judged by HOW MANY people elevate themselves out of poverty. It is more important that those with the ABILITY to rise out of poverty won't be stopped simply because they're from a line of immigrants or of a different race, religion or creed.

For example, I am aware that Sweden offers refugee status from Iraqis fleeing persecution in their country. I happen to know some personally. These people, due to Sweden's social policies, may have the opportunity to go to college, learn the Swedish language, and even work for Swedish business. The question is, will their kids ever have a chance to become the leader of Sweden? Honestly? Will the son of immigrants inherit Sweden or will there always be doors closed to them? I realize I'm basing my opinion on anectdotal evidence so I'm relying on your response as well, but both parties of Iraqi immigrants that I know in Sweden live in tiny crammed studio apartments. Neither families really have a lot of hope to improve their situation. Both families applied for US visas and are looking forward to leaving Sweden ASAP. The only thing keeping them there? Lack of options and the fact that Sweden gives them enough money to eat every month

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#177 Post by t.a.j. » 12 Nov 2008 09:21

I believe that you are making what resembles the fundamental attribution error. You seek the cause for someone's lot in life in them almost exclusively.
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#178 Post by ThePKH » 12 Nov 2008 15:57

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:The question is, will their kids ever have a chance to become the leader of Sweden? Honestly? Will the son of immigrants inherit Sweden or will there always be doors closed to them?
I think it's possible. Clearly you're underestimating rest of the western world in terms of what's possible.
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#179 Post by Joost » 12 Nov 2008 17:07

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:The question is, will their kids ever have a chance to become the leader of Sweden? Honestly? Will the son of immigrants inherit Sweden or will there always be doors closed to them?
I think so. The Netherlands has less social mobility than Sweden, and right at the moment, someone born in Turkey as well as someone born in Morocco is in the Dutch administration. (So these are the immigrants themselves, not sons of immigrants. Of course, an immigrant himself is also governor of California at the moment, so I am not denying that these things happen in the US too.)
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But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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#180 Post by Skyclad » 12 Nov 2008 18:02

Michigan's governor is Canadian. And a woman.
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#181 Post by Joost » 12 Nov 2008 18:10

Skyclad wrote:Michigan's governor is Canadian. And a woman.
OMG she came all the way from Canada to Michigan. :o
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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#182 Post by SomeEurosHateAmerica » 12 Nov 2008 19:53

t.a.j. wrote:I believe that you are making what resembles the fundamental attribution error. You seek the cause for someone's lot in life in them almost exclusively.
No, clearly I admitted that the poor tend to remain poor for many socio-economic reasons. I'm not claiming that it's someone's own fault if they remain poor. I believe you are making what resembles putting words into someone else's mouth.

All I said was, the doors of opportunity in the US are not closed to people of different races, ethnic origin, gender, religion, ect. I can't think of another country as diverse as the US, to be honest. So the fact that these equal opportunities exist in such a culturally diverse nation is impressive to me.

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#183 Post by SomeEurosHateAmerica » 12 Nov 2008 19:56

ThePKH wrote:
I think it's possible. Clearly you're underestimating rest of the western world in terms of what's possible.
Not really. Just pointing out that the rest of the world is still playing catch-up with the US in that regard.

The US is still playing catch-up with Europe in some regards, though (health care for example).

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#184 Post by Joost » 12 Nov 2008 20:09

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:All I said was, the doors of opportunity in the US are not closed to people of different races, ethnic origin, gender, religion, ect. I can't think of another country as diverse as the US, to be honest. So the fact that these equal opportunities exist in such a culturally diverse nation is impressive to me.
The first that comes to my mind is Brazil. And other South-American countries too, probably (Suriname would be a good example of a smaller South-American country with a very large degree of ethnical and religious diversity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... nic_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Suriname
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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#185 Post by Skyclad » 12 Nov 2008 20:09

Joost wrote:
Skyclad wrote:Michigan's governor is Canadian. And a woman.
OMG she came all the way from Canada to Michigan. :o
Way to miss my point. :roll:
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#186 Post by ThePKH » 12 Nov 2008 20:09

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote:Not really. Just pointing out that the rest of the world is still playing catch-up with the US in that regard.
Where's the catching up if it's already possible in many countries here? I honestly think that catch-up game is the one which involves removing the obstacles, not having to have a son of an immigrant as a president at all costs.
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#187 Post by Joost » 12 Nov 2008 20:30

Skyclad wrote:
Joost wrote:
Skyclad wrote:Michigan's governor is Canadian. And a woman.
OMG she came all the way from Canada to Michigan. :o
Way to miss my point. :roll:
Way to miss my point. :roll:


(There wasn't any)
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

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#188 Post by Skyclad » 12 Nov 2008 23:20

Joost wrote:
Skyclad wrote:
Joost wrote: OMG she came all the way from Canada to Michigan. :o
Way to miss my point. :roll:
Way to miss my point. :roll:


(There wasn't any)
I'm going to beat you with a medium-sized pine tree branch next time I see you.
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#189 Post by Joost » 13 Nov 2008 00:13

Skyclad wrote:
Joost wrote:
Skyclad wrote: Way to miss my point. :roll:
Way to miss my point. :roll:


(There wasn't any)
I'm going to beat you with a medium-sized pine tree branch next time I see you.
Gosh. How Canadian.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

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#190 Post by West Virginia Mule » 13 Nov 2008 07:15

t.a.j. wrote: You seek the cause for someone's lot in life in them almost exclusively.
Ain't that the case, though, Tommy Gun? You rise or fall on yer own, sink or swim, fly or...ya know...whatever...don't fly. That's the American Way. 97% of the homeless people in my town are that way because they lack the will to pull themselves up (the other 3% are actually dead and no one’s rolled the cadavers into the river yet). There's no net, no one to catch you if you fall. You are what you can make yourself, and if you're a white male then the only thing standing in your way are your own inabilities and failings. Now…I can’t speak for everyone in Blue Buffalo, Missouri, but I know I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s what’s made this country great for 200+ years. That and cheeseburgers.
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#191 Post by West Virginia Mule » 13 Nov 2008 07:23

Skyclad wrote: Most of my buddy's that voted McCain told me straight out "Fuck that nigger".
I like your buddies more than you.
Skyclad wrote:No, not all white people voted against him because of race, but a lot of people did.
Not all black people voted for Obama only because of his race, but most of them did.
Skyclad wrote:I knew Obama's policies.
Jeez, you sure waste a lot of time filling your head with carp. Crap, I mean. You need to get a real job so you don't have time to worry about shit like that. You'd be too busy just trying to live through another day. Now, that's the way to live a life, lemme tell ya...
Skyclad wrote:We didn't need 4 or 8 years more of that. Also, Palin is bat-shit crazy. Like you.


Bush protected the oil business, which in turn offered me more job security. 8 more years of that would've rocked. And Palin, bat-spit crazy? Pfft. Like it matters.
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#192 Post by West Virginia Mule » 13 Nov 2008 07:36

Black people who voted for Obama only because he's black were not committing a racist act. They weren't saying blacks are superior to whites or any other race, just that they're proud of their shared blackness with Obama and that's why they voted that way. It's not a case of racism; it's a matter of black pride.

If I voted for McCain only because he's white, yet my reason for doing so wasn't to imply any one race is superior or inferior to another, but only a matter of "white pride" due to my shared whiteness with McCain, would that be a case or racism?

To sum up:

"I voted for Obama because he's black." <--not racist
"I voted for McCain because he's white." <--racist
Last edited by West Virginia Mule on 13 Nov 2008 07:58, edited 2 times in total.
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#193 Post by West Virginia Mule » 13 Nov 2008 07:51

Obama’s election does not yet represent real diversity or yet realize the full potential of the American promise. Rather, it’s a mere stepping stone.

Only when we’ve elected a lesbian President (in a lesbian marriage) with a gay Vice President (in a gay marriage), both of whom are practicing atheists, both illegal immigrants who don’t speak English and have moved the seat of the U.S. government to a cabana on the Morocco coast, then and only then will we have achieved something of worth. And even then, so much more work will need to be done. Keep fighting the good fight, my brothers and sisters of the revolution.
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#194 Post by t.a.j. » 13 Nov 2008 09:26

SomeEurosHateAmerica wrote: No, clearly I admitted that the poor tend to remain poor for many socio-economic reasons. I'm not claiming that it's someone's own fault if they remain poor. I believe you are making what resembles putting words into someone else's mouth.
Then I apologize.
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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


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#195 Post by Led Guardian » 13 Nov 2008 23:57

Omega Mule wrote:Obama’s election does not yet represent real diversity or yet realize the full potential of the American promise. Rather, it’s a mere stepping stone.

Only when we’ve elected a lesbian President (in a lesbian marriage) with a gay Vice President (in a gay marriage), both of whom are practicing atheists, both illegal immigrants who don’t speak English and have moved the seat of the U.S. government to a cabana on the Morocco coast, then and only then will we have achieved something of worth. And even then, so much more work will need to be done. Keep fighting the good fight, my brothers and sisters of the revolution.
Hey, it's possible. We just need another president like Bush who will do away with the Constitution so we can elect an immigrant as president. Maybe Ahnold could do it after we elect him.
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#196 Post by Skyclad » 14 Nov 2008 02:03

Omega Mule wrote:Black people who voted for Obama only because he's black were not committing a racist act. They weren't saying blacks are superior to whites or any other race, just that they're proud of their shared blackness with Obama and that's why they voted that way. It's not a case of racism; it's a matter of black pride.

If I voted for McCain only because he's white, yet my reason for doing so wasn't to imply any one race is superior or inferior to another, but only a matter of "white pride" due to my shared whiteness with McCain, would that be a case or racism?

To sum up:

"I voted for Obama because he's black." <--not racist
"I voted for McCain because he's white." <--racist
If you voted for McCain or anyone for that reason, that would be a case of ignorance on issues.

Also, my job is working rehabilitating and caring for people with serious head injuries. I see enough shit there to not worry about anything else while I'm there.
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#197 Post by West Virginia Mule » 14 Nov 2008 05:43

Oh, okay.
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#198 Post by Wicked Child » 14 Nov 2008 16:42

Omega Mule wrote:Black people who voted for Obama only because he's black were not committing a racist act. They weren't saying blacks are superior to whites or any other race, just that they're proud of their shared blackness with Obama and that's why they voted that way. It's not a case of racism; it's a matter of black pride.

If I voted for McCain only because he's white, yet my reason for doing so wasn't to imply any one race is superior or inferior to another, but only a matter of "white pride" due to my shared whiteness with McCain, would that be a case or racism?

To sum up:

"I voted for Obama because he's black." <--not racist
"I voted for McCain because he's white." <--racist
99% agreed. This is the 1%, though: Putting into history context, white pride is racism. Black pride is resistance.

Oh, and I'd like to compliment you Mule for your clearly sincere rant about yourself. This is very good. And for what you said there you do expect people to flame back on you so you can grow as a person. That's nice in a twisted way.
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#199 Post by Led Guardian » 16 Nov 2008 06:06

Before you start thinking that the U.S. has truly become completely enlightened:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27738018
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27724965/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27425368/

I really hate these people. I can't even find words for it.
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#200 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 16 Nov 2008 14:05

Led Guardian wrote:Before you start thinking that the U.S. has truly become completely enlightened:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27738018
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27724965/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27425368/

I really hate these people. I can't even find words for it.
This makes me sad

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