Euro Elections...

In this section, you can talk relaxedly about everyday matters, and also engage in more serious discussions. Please try to keep this place accessible to everyone and write your posts in English.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Luna.Dome
Posts: 306
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 18:01
Location: here
Contact:

Euro Elections...

#1 Post by Luna.Dome » 05 Jun 2009 09:10

Hi guys: i'm back (for a while ;) )...

Since many of us live in the Euro zone, let's take a look to our government...

Holland is the first in the row. As i supposed Pvv took many votes. It surprises me. Always considered holland a sort of left paradise.

How much are you 'feeling' euro? What are the local considerations which will lead to your vote?

I'm gonna quit the ideological reasons not voting a 'classical' left paty (Neo Communist of Socialdemocrats) to give my support to IDV (Di Pietro's party -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_of_Values ). It's the legalitarian party, and i feel a urge to push Italy towards legality nowadays ([sarcasm]i wonder why :roll: [/sarcasm])

So...Let's discuss ;)
No'am wrote:
Quoting Antinowhere League's 'So What', I wrote: I drunk that, i drunk this, I've spewed up on a pint of piss....
That's because you drink Heineken
---

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

#2 Post by End Of An Era » 05 Jun 2009 09:42

well one thing i fear is the slow formation of a supercountry. therefore i voted a party which does not support further agglomeration between nations and more independence and more local rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_P ... _Democracy

Luna.Dome
Posts: 306
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 18:01
Location: here
Contact:

#3 Post by Luna.Dome » 05 Jun 2009 09:55

Do you mean it supports a true federative UE? That makes sense...
No'am wrote:
Quoting Antinowhere League's 'So What', I wrote: I drunk that, i drunk this, I've spewed up on a pint of piss....
That's because you drink Heineken
---

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

#4 Post by Joost » 05 Jun 2009 10:16

End Of An Era wrote:well one thing i fear is the slow formation of a supercountry. therefore i voted a party which does not support further agglomeration between nations and more independence and more local rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_P ... _Democracy
Well, you basically voted for a party that never knows what it wants. :lol: It presents itself as a somewhat Eurosceptic party now, just let's have a look at the recent history of the VVD.

When we had a referendum for the European Constitution, the VVD came with amazing rhetorics such as:
"This never again!" and "The danger is close at hand" accompanied by images of Auschwitz
and
Vote for the constitution just because Jan Marijnissen and Bas van der Vlies are against it!
and
Cynics shouldn't vote at all!
They totally went along with the fearmongering of the other big parties (CDA and PvdA) to trick us into voting for the European Constitution.

When the Constitution got rejected and replaced by the Treaty of Lisbon, which again got rejected in a referendum in Ireland, what the VVD proposed was... another referendum in Ireland, just to get the damn thing accepted, instead of actually doing what they should have done: asking for a referendum here, in the Netherlands, to find out what the people here wanted. Nope, they voted against the proposal of a referendum here (which was supported by SP, D66, Groenlinks, PVV and the Partij voor de Dieren) and unconditionally voted for the treaty.

Forgive me, but that does - in my eyes at least - not combine very well with opposing a supercountry and being for more independence between countries.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

#5 Post by Joost » 05 Jun 2009 10:40

As for myself, I voted the Green Party, for a number of reasons.

- Agreement with the whole "Green Deal" proposal. We're in a crisis now, the best way to deal with such things is to invest in the future in various ways, and one of the best ways to invest in the future is to invest in better/greener infrastructure and in alaternatives for fossile fuels.

- The fact that the Green party seem to be the among the few parties who are able to consistently have a nuanced view about what should happen with Europe and European integration (a small Christian party being the only other one). Other parties seem to be either blindly anti-Europe (PVV, SP), blindly pro-Europe (D'66, CDA), terribly inconsistent in what they say (VVD), or totally spineless (PvdA).

- The fact that the Green party are consistently speaking out for a more democratic Europe, and have a clear history of proposals enabling the people to have more influence on the decisionmaking process. The fact that they supported a referendum about the Lisbon Treaty does not stand alone. Also independent research from the Montesquieu institute has shown that, of the Dutch parties in the Europarliament, the Greens have the best record of furthering the democratisation process, which is direly needed as the EU as it is now is quite a bit of a mess in that regard.

- The fact that they are more or less the guards of our privacy, in an age when more and more people seem to be fine with taking away individual rights by fearmongering and "protecting" them against hardly-existent threats.

(And I'm glad that the party I voted for was one out of only three Dutch parties to gain seats in the European parliament.)


And, just as an addition, allow me to add that the campaign here, again, was dominated largely by fearmongering and discussion of non-issues. The PVV clearly was the worst offender here, with their mantra:

"Turkey should never join the EU because it is a Muslim country. Turkey should never join the EU because it is a Muslim country. Turkey should never join the EU because it is a Muslim country. Turkey should never join the EU because it is a Muslim country. Turkey should never join the EU because it is a Muslim country."

As other people actually have pointed out more than enough, Turkey joining the EU is not even an issue at the moment. They do not meet the criteria for EU membership now, they will not meet those criteria five years from now, and their membership is just not going to be an issue in the next five years.

Also many other parties have been guilty of this, such as the SP hammering on the PVV's proposal to abolish minimum wage (which belongs to national politics, not European politics).
Last edited by Joost on 05 Jun 2009 10:52, edited 1 time in total.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

#6 Post by Joost » 05 Jun 2009 10:46

Holland is the first in the row. As i supposed Pvv took many votes. It surprises me. Always considered holland a sort of left paradise.
The Netherlands never was a 'left paradise' or anything quite like it. Since World War II, most of our coalitions have been center-right, with a minority of center-left coalitions. Many of the 'liberal' policies the Netherlands is famous for (gay marriage, euthanasia rights), however, were introduced in the period 1994-2002, when the social democrats teamed up with a right-wing liberal party (VVD) and a more centrist liberal party (D'66) in the so called "purple coalitions".

The rise of populism in the Netherlands (first with Fortuyn, and then with Wilders) started exactly as a counterreaction to those "purple" coalitions -- not even against liberal achievements such as euthanasia or gay marriage, but much rather against their somewhat naive approach to issues of economy and immigration.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

Luna.Dome
Posts: 306
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 18:01
Location: here
Contact:

#7 Post by Luna.Dome » 05 Jun 2009 11:07

I was not so well informed (=ignorant ;) ). Thanks Joost.

Reading your post something came on my mind. Another issue of Italian Polithics regarding europe deals with a tendency to project our polithics fights over Strasbourg...

No one here thinks his euro-vote as a way to participate to euro-democracy, but as a way to confirm his/her support to the italian party he/she prefer. It's like if Italians sense European parliament a mere extension of Italian one: a boxe ring larger than italian parliament...

This is not necessarily a critic (i'm gonna act this way, after all). It's surely wrong, but pragmathically i can see Italy HAS to solve some local matter (It's not JUST Berlusconi, anyway) before starting a change of mentality towards European views...
No'am wrote:
Quoting Antinowhere League's 'So What', I wrote: I drunk that, i drunk this, I've spewed up on a pint of piss....
That's because you drink Heineken
---

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

#8 Post by End Of An Era » 05 Jun 2009 13:27

Joost wrote:
End Of An Era wrote:well one thing i fear is the slow formation of a supercountry. therefore i voted a party which does not support further agglomeration between nations and more independence and more local rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_P ... _Democracy
Well, you basically voted for a party that never knows what it wants.
i like to keep an open vizor and lose the 'bad memories' therefore focus on their current standpoints ;) I mean, it would be impossible to vote then since there's always someone within a policital party who doens't totally agree with the main pillars of that party ;)

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

#9 Post by Joost » 05 Jun 2009 16:19

End Of An Era wrote:i like to keep an open vizor and lose the 'bad memories' therefore focus on their current standpoints ;) I mean, it would be impossible to vote then since there's always someone within a policital party who doens't totally agree with the main pillars of that party ;)
Well, 'bad memories'... this happened less than a year ago, with the entire VVD parliamentary group in the Lower House (including Hans van Baalen, that is) voting against a referendum.

So it's hardly like "oh, one member of the party did some questionable things 20 years ago" (to get old cows out of the ditch (to use an awful Dutchism :P) like that is quite silly IMO), and much more like "the party has a recent history of being unable to choose a direction at all". I think it's quite sensible to have a look at a party's recent history when voting in an election, and the decision not to have a referendum about the Lisbon treaty was made just a year ago.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

User avatar
Medea
Posts: 139
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 23:04
Location: Zwolle

#10 Post by Medea » 05 Jun 2009 16:29

I've voted for the more centrist liberal party (D'66)..

It's like a 'safe' vote..

The 'left' groups are not very reliable (the SP (left party) got a nice amount of chairs in the government, but they failed to become part of the coalition, claiming they were better as an opposing party :roll: )

The 'right' groups are really bollocks. They just say everything that people (usually with lower education) want to hear.

Then there are a few center groups, which never know what they want and always do everything to please everyone (PvdA gave up some of their most appreciated values after the elections and our prime minister (CDA) didn't want to meet the dalai lama because he's scared of china) except when it comes to what the people want.

Furthermore, I refuse to vote for a christian party as I'm in favor of the liberal policies like abortion, gay marraige and euthanasia

After this, I decided to vote D66, because they have a good program..

and yes, I am pro-Europe... it would be just better to have a tight cooperation between several countries so that we can actually compete with the bigger countries like china, russia and the us.. When Europe becomes big, maybe then, we could do something about america when another *** like Bush becomes president again...



ps. long time since I posted a post this long =)

Skyclad
Posts: 483
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 19:07
Location: Caro, Michigan U.S.A.
Contact:

#11 Post by Skyclad » 05 Jun 2009 16:31

Anyone see Obama at the concentration camp? Why did Andrea Merkel stare at him through his whole speech like she wanted to throw him into one of the ovens? :shock:
"The Simpsons is not real life"-Skyclads mom.

My My... MySPace: http://www.myspace.com/thetruebritton

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

#12 Post by End Of An Era » 05 Jun 2009 18:29

:lol: btw, its Angela Merkel, but nevermind ;)

no i didn't see it!! but now i am dying to! :P

User avatar
Gandalf de Grijze
Posts: 13919
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 18:01
Location: Dutchielandia
Contact:

#13 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 06 Jun 2009 00:43

from what i know Angela always looks like that
Hansi 24-09-2010 wrote:It's always good to be back in the United States Of The Netherlands
Check out my photography at Steemphoto.com

User avatar
West Virginia Mule
Posts: 657
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 18:16
Location: West Virginia

#14 Post by West Virginia Mule » 06 Jun 2009 11:30

Skyclad wrote:Why did Andrea Merkel stare at him through his whole speech like she wanted to throw him into one of the ovens?
Because Obama said Germans are a bunch of evil bastards. And he's right. For once. What?
KILROY WAS HERE

Skyclad
Posts: 483
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 19:07
Location: Caro, Michigan U.S.A.
Contact:

#15 Post by Skyclad » 06 Jun 2009 15:39

West Virginia Mule wrote:
Skyclad wrote:Why did Andrea Merkel stare at him through his whole speech like she wanted to throw him into one of the ovens?
Because Obama said Germans are a bunch of evil bastards. And he's right. For once. What?
So, they're being all Desructiony and Kereatory? They should be proud of that.
"The Simpsons is not real life"-Skyclads mom.

My My... MySPace: http://www.myspace.com/thetruebritton

User avatar
ThePKH
Posts: 1288
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 19:22
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Contact:

#16 Post by ThePKH » 07 Jun 2009 10:17

Voted for the green party because the European greens have a solid EU-wide policy of which Finnish Green League is part of. In my opinions, most other groups are lacking at this aspect. Some Finnish parties for example raise up issues that are clearly a domestic, or even local matter and have nothing to do with EU-level decision making...
The individual which I voted for would bring much-needed knowledge about modern ways of communication (internet) to the parliament as well.
I still am the terror that flaps in the night!

Skyclad
Posts: 483
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 19:07
Location: Caro, Michigan U.S.A.
Contact:

#17 Post by Skyclad » 13 Jun 2009 01:23

Did I hear correctly that after all of those years of Europeans wanting a left winger in the White House, a lot of Europeans voted in center/center-right people? Hypocrites!
"The Simpsons is not real life"-Skyclads mom.

My My... MySPace: http://www.myspace.com/thetruebritton

User avatar
ThePKH
Posts: 1288
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 19:22
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Contact:

#18 Post by ThePKH » 13 Jun 2009 04:20

Well, basicly many European right-wing parties are similar to Democrats... Just goes to show how left-wing the American "left" is.
I still am the terror that flaps in the night!

Skyclad
Posts: 483
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 19:07
Location: Caro, Michigan U.S.A.
Contact:

#19 Post by Skyclad » 13 Jun 2009 04:37

ThePKH wrote:Well, basicly many European right-wing parties are similar to Democrats... Just goes to show how left-wing the American "left" is.

I don't know... It's been said the Euro's voted their pocketbooks this time around, and that's a pretty far-right thing to do.
"The Simpsons is not real life"-Skyclads mom.

My My... MySPace: http://www.myspace.com/thetruebritton

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

#20 Post by End Of An Era » 13 Jun 2009 11:27

all throughout europe the tendency is indeed right to far-right. Most people are fed up with the way things went and decided to support loudmouth rightwing parties....

Kankra
Posts: 116
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54

#21 Post by Kankra » 13 Jun 2009 15:34

Economical crisis -> more people voting for left or right wing. /shrug

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests