Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

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The Rider Of Rohan
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Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#1 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 30 Oct 2009 18:45

For those who care about the subject of the matter: the Dutch government has announced their plans to make downloading from obviously illegal sources (torrents, for example) illegal. Sure, they're not the first, seeing that the English and French governments decided the same things recently. But then again, nobody could be really surprised when the French are the first to surrender and the Brittish just follow orders from Washington. ;)

In short (as I am confident Joost will bother to correct me by filling in my blancs in this story ;)), the plans are as follows:

- downloading (from torrents and the like) will be made illegal in 2012 or 2013
- Taxation of blanc cd's and dvd's on behalf of the recording industy will cease
- In return for a ban on downloading through p2p, the music and movie industries need to develop an adequate alternative, where users can get unlimited downloading and streaming for a fixed price

Soooooooo.... what do you all think?
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#2 Post by West Virginia Mule » 30 Oct 2009 18:58

Next thing you know they'll make stealing cars illegal too. What's this world coming too? :wink:
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#3 Post by End Of An Era » 30 Oct 2009 19:08

i think the music/movie industry should take responsibility for acting too late on the internet demand instead of forbidding everything. If only they acted earlier and more reasonable, they wouldn't have to resort to these extreme measures. I think the internet should remain as free as possible.

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#4 Post by ThePKH » 30 Oct 2009 20:56

So no more policemen like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRfluaMKoOY :(
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#5 Post by West Virginia Mule » 30 Oct 2009 21:28

When Obama is president of the United States of Earth (i.e. the world), the world government will provide for all your downloading needs.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#6 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 30 Oct 2009 21:30

End Of An Era wrote:i think the music/movie industry should take responsibility for acting too late on the internet demand instead of forbidding everything. If only they acted earlier and more reasonable, they wouldn't have to resort to these extreme measures. I think the internet should remain as free as possible.
It's true they acted too late, and that might just be why politicians want to force them to repair the damage. As much as I am in favor of the current legality of downloading music and movies for free, I am even more in favor of the proposed new system.

If the industry succeeded in creating a platform where I can download and stream every commercial cd and movie available at a decent price, I would be happy to pay up. I pay 7 euro's for a newsgroupsubscription and half of that each month on taxes on blanc dvd's. So if they'd make a legal pirate-bay for about 10 euro's a month I wouldn't object.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#7 Post by Joost » 31 Oct 2009 18:08

I actually expect the music business not to like this.

Why? They'll lose a lot of income from the taxes on blank cds, dvds, etc., and they're as of yet completely unsure if the new law will actually work, and whether it can actually be enforced. (Just look at the current situation: uploading and sharing music is illegal already, everyone who uses e.g. Bittorrent does it, and exactly how many people do you know who got fined for doing so?)

In all likelihood, people will just continue downloading anyway, and most of them won't be punished for doing so. (Simply because it's an almost impossible task to punish everyone who downloads illegally.)
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#8 Post by West Virginia Mule » 31 Oct 2009 19:27

The illegality of pirating hasn’t stopped it anywhere else.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#9 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 01 Nov 2009 17:07

Does it? Hmm.... I wonder. Take South Park, for example. Ever since southpark.com started offering all the episodes, including the new ones, for free streaming, the amount of seeders and leechers for new episodes went down,
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#10 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 01 Nov 2009 18:34

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Does it? Hmm.... I wonder. Take South Park, for example. Ever since southpark.com started offering all the episodes, including the new ones, for free streaming, the amount of seeders and leechers for new episodes went down,

:lol: i had trouble finding episode online. until i realised they're there for free on their website. totally awesome of them.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#11 Post by End Of An Era » 02 Nov 2009 13:08

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
End Of An Era wrote:i think the music/movie industry should take responsibility for acting too late on the internet demand instead of forbidding everything. If only they acted earlier and more reasonable, they wouldn't have to resort to these extreme measures. I think the internet should remain as free as possible.
It's true they acted too late, and that might just be why politicians want to force them to repair the damage. As much as I am in favor of the current legality of downloading music and movies for free, I am even more in favor of the proposed new system.

If the industry succeeded in creating a platform where I can download and stream every commercial cd and movie available at a decent price, I would be happy to pay up. I pay 7 euro's for a newsgroupsubscription and half of that each month on taxes on blanc dvd's. So if they'd make a legal pirate-bay for about 10 euro's a month I wouldn't object.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#12 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 Nov 2009 22:55

Well, at least it'll put some perspective on the whole debate.

Plus, I'm happy to see the taxation of planc cd's and dvd's going. I hate the idea that everytime I burn a Linux-distro to a cd of use a cd to back up my pictures, part of the money goes to recordlables.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#13 Post by End Of An Era » 02 Nov 2009 23:50

Personally i feel it's no big deal with the current prices of recordable CD's and DVD's.. i mean, what does a CD-R cost these days? 20cents for familiar brand CD-r a piece. it´s a small price to pay as long as i can download freely! :P

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#14 Post by Mahoora » 03 Nov 2009 13:30

guys, didn't you hear about site cracking softwares and proxy changing?? it's a piece of cake, you could log on to any "banned" site you want :lol: when they apply the law just mail me, I'll tell you how
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#15 Post by End Of An Era » 03 Nov 2009 14:35

Mahoora wrote:guys, didn't you hear about site cracking softwares and proxy changing?? it's a piece of cake, you could log on to any "banned" site you want :lol: when they apply the law just mail me, I'll tell you how
well yeah of course i did! and i think many other here did too, but that's not really the point right? it's my/our governements taking away rights and freedom.

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#16 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Nov 2009 19:58

It's always possible t avoid a detexion. Personally, I would't use proxies though. As a rule they tune down your bandwith, and downloading at 1MB/ps is one of the blessings of our age. Plus you should ask yourself why somebody volunteers to act as a proxy. It might be because they wish all the best for you and the world (those people excist) but there are also people who might want to offer a proxy just to sniff the data that flows through it.

If things get that tight, I predict wasier alternatives. Numerous torrent-clients have already adopted ssl-support, so that might be one way to go.

So yeah, it'll be easy to download undetected even when they make downloading illegal.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#17 Post by Saurius » 06 Nov 2009 13:00

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#18 Post by Led Guardian » 08 Nov 2009 20:00

End Of An Era wrote:
Mahoora wrote:guys, didn't you hear about site cracking softwares and proxy changing?? it's a piece of cake, you could log on to any "banned" site you want :lol: when they apply the law just mail me, I'll tell you how
well yeah of course i did! and i think many other here did too, but that's not really the point right? it's my/our governements taking away rights and freedom.
How dare they take away your right to theft! :P
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#19 Post by End Of An Era » 09 Nov 2009 00:35

Led Guardian wrote:
End Of An Era wrote:
Mahoora wrote:guys, didn't you hear about site cracking softwares and proxy changing?? it's a piece of cake, you could log on to any "banned" site you want :lol: when they apply the law just mail me, I'll tell you how
well yeah of course i did! and i think many other here did too, but that's not really the point right? it's my/our governements taking away rights and freedom.
How dare they take away your right to theft! :P
listening music before purchase is theft? those bastard record shops should stop their listening service too then ;) oh, and you shouldn't listen to music others play either, i mean, you didn't buy that either! :P
Anyway, i have a vast collection of records. With the records i´ve bought myself the right to rip their content to my PC, but since the soundquality of the music availiable on the internet is so much better than i can do at home, i prefer to download... When downloading would become illegal, i cannot listen to the music i legally own on my PC, how fucked up is that? you're saying it's ok to force me to invest in high-quality turntables and mp3 encoders so i can listen to my music on my PC? :P

Besides, there's more than just one study that conclude that downloaders spend more money on music and merchandise on average than non-downloaders. Making free downloading impossible should therefore result in less sales. It will become harder to discover new bands too; you will be depending on record labels, radio and TV, and we all know what shitty music they want to sell, hm? ;)

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#20 Post by Joost » 09 Nov 2009 01:31

End Of An Era wrote:With the records i´ve bought myself the right to rip their content to my PC, but since the soundquality of the music availiable on the internet is so much better than i can do at home, i prefer to download...
Really, it shouldn't be difficult to achieve the same quality at home. ;) You can look up the settings in LAME (or another encoding) that are used for the 'great quality' encodings, and rip at those settings yourself.

(Or are you talking about vinyl records here? One can actually wonder if, by buying a vinyl record, you actually bought the right to listen to hifi digital encodings of that record or not. :P)
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#21 Post by Joost » 09 Nov 2009 01:32

End Of An Era wrote:Making free downloading impossible should therefore result in less sales. It will become harder to discover new bands too; you will be depending on record labels, radio and TV, and we all know what shitty music they want to sell, hm? ;)
Just as Lars Ulrich and his wallet would love it. ;)
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#22 Post by Led Guardian » 09 Nov 2009 03:35

End Of An Era wrote:listening music before purchase is theft? those bastard record shops should stop their listening service too then ;) oh, and you shouldn't listen to music others play either, i mean, you didn't buy that either! :P
Anyway, i have a vast collection of records. With the records i´ve bought myself the right to rip their content to my PC, but since the soundquality of the music availiable on the internet is so much better than i can do at home, i prefer to download... When downloading would become illegal, i cannot listen to the music i legally own on my PC, how fucked up is that? you're saying it's ok to force me to invest in high-quality turntables and mp3 encoders so i can listen to my music on my PC? :P

Besides, there's more than just one study that conclude that downloaders spend more money on music and merchandise on average than non-downloaders. Making free downloading impossible should therefore result in less sales. It will become harder to discover new bands too; you will be depending on record labels, radio and TV, and we all know what shitty music they want to sell, hm? ;)
I considering downloading before buying to be like listening in a record store or at a friend's house. It is downloading with no intention to ever buy or delete that I consider to be theft. If that is not what you are doing, then I do not consider you to be stealing.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#23 Post by End Of An Era » 09 Nov 2009 11:22

Led Guardian wrote:I considering downloading before buying to be like listening in a record store or at a friend's house. It is downloading with no intention to ever buy or delete that I consider to be theft. If that is not what you are doing, then I do not consider you to be stealing.
That's very cool of you, though i must admit i download more than i legally own, but that's because of some long-term planning. I am still a student atm, therefore have better things to do with my money than buying records. I do plan on buying a shitload of albums to get up to code again though, when i'm working full-time again :).

Anyway, my government does think it's theft... :(

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#24 Post by Wicked Child » 09 Nov 2009 13:01

How dare they take away your right to theft!
The term theft is, at least, anachronistic on this subject. (Not to say completely mistaken.)
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#25 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Nov 2009 19:54

Comparing downloading to theft seems to be the modern equivalent to Godwin's Law. :roll:

Theft is defined as "the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent" in criminal law; which is something completely unrelated to copyright infringement, which is part of civil law. Not only are they both from unrelated books of law, they differ in the way that in one case something is taken away, and in the other case something is copied with a fee being paid to the owner of said copyright. So the 'right to theft''-remark is close to the dumbest thing I have heard in this topic.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#26 Post by Metal Fan » 10 Nov 2009 07:01

Well, you want to the shitty, Nobama plans to "limit" web site. But in realty he's getting rid of the health web site who appose of him 0_0 So bye bye Facebook...
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#27 Post by Joost » 10 Nov 2009 10:37

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:- downloading (from torrents and the like) will be made illegal in 2012 or 2013
When I think of it, most of the time, when people use torrents, they download and upload, so (because of the latter) they're already doing something illegal now.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#28 Post by Wicked Child » 10 Nov 2009 12:33

Metal Fan wrote:Well, you want to the shitty, Nobama plans to "limit" web site. But in realty he's getting rid of the health web site who appose of him 0_0 So bye bye Facebook...
:lol:
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#29 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 10 Nov 2009 20:06

Joost wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:- downloading (from torrents and the like) will be made illegal in 2012 or 2013
When I think of it, most of the time, when people use torrents, they download and upload, so (because of the latter) they're already doing something illegal now.
True. That's why I have a payserver. :)
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#30 Post by Led Guardian » 11 Nov 2009 03:04

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:So the 'right to theft''-remark is close to the dumbest thing I have heard in this topic.
I mean, if you want to get all technical and judgmental on a hyperbolic, mostly sarcastic remark, that's your choice...
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#31 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 11 Nov 2009 03:17

Led Guardian wrote: It is downloading with no intention to ever buy or delete that I consider to be theft. If that is not what you are doing, then I do not consider you to be stealing.
OMG the Led Guardian has just called me a thief :x

anyway...i can only say that if it wasn't for all the "stealing" i've done over the past "insert number of years P2P downloads have been around" i would've never met some of my favorite bands.in fact,i don't think any of those bands would have come here if it wasn't for all that stealing we horrible people have done,well maybe only the more mainstream ones

...so...i'm i thief,am i?well excuuuuuuuse meeee :wink:

oh and something i always say on this kind of threads,P2P downloads are not illegal down here.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#32 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 11 Nov 2009 08:02

Led Guardian wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:So the 'right to theft''-remark is close to the dumbest thing I have heard in this topic.
I mean, if you want to get all technical and judgmental on a hyperbolic, mostly sarcastic remark, that's your choice...
That's the easy way out.... First saying something amazingly dumb, then when the dumbness is pointed out, saying it was sarcasm.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#33 Post by Led Guardian » 11 Nov 2009 22:21

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
Led Guardian wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:So the 'right to theft''-remark is close to the dumbest thing I have heard in this topic.
I mean, if you want to get all technical and judgmental on a hyperbolic, mostly sarcastic remark, that's your choice...
That's the easy way out.... First saying something amazingly dumb, then when the dumbness is pointed out, saying it was sarcasm.
Should I lie and say I was completely serious then?
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#34 Post by Joost » 11 Nov 2009 23:50

You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#35 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 12 Nov 2009 04:16

Joost wrote:http://gprime.net/flash.php/youareapirate

This post is 100% serious.
post of the year,by far :lol:
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#36 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 12 Nov 2009 04:25

that was so fucking funny lol
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#37 Post by End Of An Era » 12 Nov 2009 19:07

Joost wrote:http://gprime.net/flash.php/youareapirate

This post is 100% serious.
:lol: ROLFMAO!!

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#38 Post by Led Guardian » 12 Nov 2009 23:12

Joost wrote:http://gprime.net/flash.php/youareapirate

This post is 100% serious.
:lol:
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#39 Post by Wicked Child » 13 Nov 2009 02:42

Led Guardian wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote: That's the easy way out.... First saying something amazingly dumb, then when the dumbness is pointed out, saying it was sarcasm.
Should I lie and say I was completely serious then?
hey this is Mule's technique..
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President Obama and the United States of Earth!?!

#40 Post by Hansi Smurf » 13 Nov 2009 20:59

Paying to live is a crime against me personally, and after 5 long years of me ranting and raving for zero borders, wars, locked doors, ID's and cash-accounting, and finding zero democratic secondings from anyone here (and it shoulda been immediate, and it shoulda been everyone) in this vast global community, I feel that super-villainy and Death Magnetic are the only key to ending my sorrows!

George Lucas should have produced my own 1%, Hippie, Digger, Weatherman Undergrounder, violently anarchist "Star Wars" yesterday, and he will not produce it tomorrow, either, preferring substanceless pap and death by old age!
I've been researching global and local humans for 36 years, and my research now proves conclusively that 99% of language using bodies are mere robots, town window-dressing, socio-paths lacking inner-being, whom thrive upon the permissions of others in order to eat and fuck and whom then via mass tyrannically impose said nuisance upon me and the other larger, stronger, higher-IQed carnivore predators!

Obama and his international ilk, and their cronies, the Elect, continue to admit to incompetance under psychic scrutiny; their own feeble bodies cannot or will not adapt to accept post-industrial leisure hedonism, free of accountability to yearly taxes, cenus-taking, police, laws and redundant geological re-surveying!

The Self-Determined and Post-Industrialized Individual cannot be free of inner-violence due to the existance of today's Mass, a Mass already scrutinized competantly enough to be realized as INCOMPETANT; biologically incapable of ever achieving the Age of Consent! (actually proven by the United States of America via psychological examination during the WWII era, where the mass could not be seen as having passed the psychological age of thirteen!)

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#41 Post by Metal Fan » 16 Nov 2009 08:19

Are you Christian? No offense, but you keep saying "Mass" and that's the only thing that comes to mind.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#42 Post by Led Guardian » 16 Nov 2009 22:10

Metal Fan wrote:Are you Christian? No offense, but you keep saying "Mass" and that's the only thing that comes to mind.
I think he means it like "the masses," as in the general populace.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#43 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 16 Nov 2009 23:39

I lost sight of what this topic was about again.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#44 Post by Led Guardian » 17 Nov 2009 01:38

Hmm, looking a little ways up the topic, I'd say it's about George Lucas and Star Wars.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#45 Post by Metal Fan » 17 Nov 2009 07:02

Led Guardian wrote:
Metal Fan wrote:Are you Christian? No offense, but you keep saying "Mass" and that's the only thing that comes to mind.
I think he means it like "the masses," as in the general populace.
Whoops sorry. I've never heard it like that before :oops:
⋨The Dagor Dagorath, the great final battle at which the forces of the brothers Manwë and Melkor will face one another, and Arda will be unmade.⋩
Is in with Bender on his plan
Blind Guardian wrote:A fairly small but absolutely bravehearted crowd in Tempe has made that a night remember. Marcus(on behalf of the band) says: Thank you:-)

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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#46 Post by Mahoora » 18 Nov 2009 18:39

you were talking about downloading before purchasing, well if you don't have anything to purchase what are you gonna do? In Syria there's no copyright for unsyrian cd's, it's more like china situation: everything is copied. even before filesharing, shops use to buy an original from europe or lebanon, copy it, then sell the original to a die hard fan and sell all other copies. literally if you search all over Syria to find an original copy you won't find it. I my self buy the albums of my favorite bands from abroad cuz i really want the band to benefit. Also in a 3rd world country like mine,where salary is really low (comparing to 1st world country) no one can afford to buy an original(as are they priced in europe for example) : the average salary for a starter can make 10 cd's so who would waste 20% of his salary on 2 cd's? :roll: so the answer is download
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#47 Post by Wicked Child » 18 Nov 2009 20:36

Mahoora wrote:I my self buy the albums of my favorite bands from abroad cuz i really want the band to benefit.
They won't anyway. Not in a directly way. I mean, the gain percentage on record sales are minimum -- to the band. What actually benefit the band when you buy their CD is that this may maintain their record deal, therefore, being signed up with a big label, they're gonna afford a good record studio and production and also international distribuition and promotion of your CD. However, there are many Record Companies that are modifying the contracts with bands, making the band responsible for almost everything (recording and production included), when the Label itself will only afford selling it through their big sales systems. All to keep their profit margin.
So, yeah. Go on and download it all the way.. and don't miss the oportunity to attend to a gig when you have the opportunity.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#48 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 18 Nov 2009 22:27

Exactly. Look at all the controversy caused by the media. Never do the artists complain: it s usually a representative of a recordcompany or some kind of interest-group that speaks bad about downloading. The suits might claim that downloading is killing the artists, but basically do so because it is killing off the suits themselves. Most bands happily make money from touring and merchandising with cds generating little or no profit at all, so downloading is just cutting out the middle man, so to speak.

It has been custom for bands to finance their own studiotime for decades, so theres little to be lost once recordcompanies go the way of the dinosaur.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#49 Post by Joost » 19 Nov 2009 11:39

Wicked Child wrote:
Mahoora wrote:I my self buy the albums of my favorite bands from abroad cuz i really want the band to benefit.
They won't anyway. Not in a directly way. I mean, the gain percentage on record sales are minimum -- to the band.
Of course, this is a bit different when you buy from the band directly. Some bands self-release their albums without any record company being involved at all, and I'm sure these bands do get the lion's share of the money you pay for the albums, if you buy it from them directly.

Personally, I won't mind it at all if the record companies are simply eliminated from the process altogether.
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Re: Netherlands planning to make downloading illegal

#50 Post by Wicked Child » 19 Nov 2009 18:24

Joost wrote:Of course, this is a bit different when you buy from the band directly. Some bands self-release their albums without any record company being involved at all, and I'm sure these bands do get the lion's share of the money you pay for the albums, if you buy it from them directly.
That's not the case of most of them, I guess...?
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