God is imaginary

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Orodaran
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Re: God is imaginary

#51 Post by Orodaran » 22 Dec 2009 23:28

Well, I have to say that I agree with you on the intentions issue: as you said, if you try to kill someone to steal his wallet, it doesn't matter if you actually kill him or if the guy turns out to be a rapist on the loose out to get some girls; but, with Jesus' crucifixion, the story was more complex, since he was *sent* to die for our sins. So maybe the question should shift on how much of the famous "free will" Judas had, especially since Jesus KNEW it all along ("one of you motherfuckers is the one who will betray me"), as it was written.

Was Judas a puppet of God, a necessary evil? Was he a trick of the devil, and it was all a chess game between God and the devil, like "I make him believe he can kill my son, but then he will resurrect and the horned guy is fucked", with Judas being a tool of Satan? if it had to happen, and Jesus knew how it would happen, then Judas was part of a greater plan and he had no free will of his own. I don't think the plan was to send Jesus on earth and then eventually wait until someone, maybe, hypothetically, would kill him or get him crucified.

Since in this thread I already talked about Tolkien, let's get back to him one more time; at the very end Gandalf says to thank Gollum, since without him the quest could not be ended successfully. He was a major pain in the ass from the beginning, but his hironical and very much unwanted (by him) help in destroying the ring made everyone acknowledge that, after all, he is to be "thanked" in a way. No one said about Judas anything like "He did an horrible thing, but if he only knew how his evil deed meant, in retrospective, salvation for all mankind..." shouldn't his position be considered like the one of a tragic hero? everyone who read the Lord of the Rings agree that Bilbo did the right thing in sparing Gollum, when he could have killed him; but I bet no one would look back on all the crucifixion thing and say "well, if Jesus was really sent to die for us and he knew how it would have happened, Judas was just an actor that was given the part of the bad guy".
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Re: God is imaginary

#52 Post by Desert_Storm » 23 Dec 2009 00:06

Orodaran wrote:...with Jesus' crucifixion, the story was more complex, since he was *sent* to die for our sins.
Maybe another example will clearify that. There's a german journalist who dresses up as various kinds of discriminated people, writes about the experiences he makes and how people treat him. Two of his more famous roles were a employe in a call center (or an industry alike), and one where he pretended to be a black asylum seeker. This man's vision is to show the public how certain minorities are treated in our society, and he makes a living out of that. Having said that, I'm quite sure he sees the boss who yelled at him and make him work overtime for no money, or the neonazi who beat him up with a baseball bat as an asshole anyway. So does the public, even though "thanks to them" we now know about the problem and have discussions about it (and some call centers have already changed administrative rules).
Of course you can't compare his "mission" to the one of Jesus, but you'll maybe understand my point:
Just because someone manages to make the best out of something bad, the guy who caused the bad thing in the first place remains an asshole.
So maybe the question should shift on how much of the famous "free will" Judas had, especially since Jesus KNEW it all along ("one of you motherfuckers is the one who will betray me"), as it was written.
About the free will, I guess I have written enough about it on the first page, feel free to comment.
I don't think the plan was to send Jesus on earth and then eventually wait until someone, maybe, hypothetically, would kill him or get him crucified.
Well maybe it was after all :wink:
I mean he could have been quite sure that if Judas wouldn't have done it, somebody else would have soon. We can read that the general opinion among the jewish leaders was made anyway ["This man claims to be god, and many people are believing in him, what if he abuses that power?"], and their plan to kill him setteled. If I remember correctly, the only thing Judas did was to show them the place were Jesus could be found at night (and that can't have been so hard to find out if they wanted to) and to identify him (what can't be so hard either, I mean they knew who he was). Reading that Judas got payed quite well for that (I'm not sure of the current value of some silver coins though). Due to this points, I imagine that sooner or later (probably much sooner), somebody else would have done it.
Since in this thread I already talked about Tolkien, let's get back to him one more time; at the very end Gandalf says to thank Gollum, since without him the quest could not be ended successfully. He was a major pain in the ass from the beginning, but his hironical and very much unwanted (by him) help in destroying the ring made everyone acknowledge that, after all, he is to be "thanked" in a way. No one said about Judas anything like "He did an horrible thing, but if he only knew how his evil deed meant, in retrospective, salvation for all mankind..." shouldn't his position be considered like the one of a tragic hero?
actually there are some people who are of this opinion, among the early christians was a gnostic movement who hailed Judas for fulfilling gods plan. Above the free will thing again, I have stated my opinion, and since I believe that the will is actually free, Judas' action was evil nevertheless for the reasons stated above (and so was gollum, by the way ;) )

great discussion :)
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Re: God is imaginary

#53 Post by Joost » 23 Dec 2009 00:16

Orodaran wrote:Since in this thread I already talked about Tolkien, let's get back to him one more time; at the very end Gandalf says to thank Gollum, since without him the quest could not be ended successfully. He was a major pain in the ass from the beginning, but his hironical and very much unwanted (by him) help in destroying the ring made everyone acknowledge that, after all, he is to be "thanked" in a way. No one said about Judas anything like "He did an horrible thing, but if he only knew how his evil deed meant, in retrospective, salvation for all mankind..." shouldn't his position be considered like the one of a tragic hero? everyone who read the Lord of the Rings agree that Bilbo did the right thing in sparing Gollum, when he could have killed him; but I bet no one would look back on all the crucifixion thing and say "well, if Jesus was really sent to die for us and he knew how it would have happened, Judas was just an actor that was given the part of the bad guy".
This is, of course, reflected very well in Gandalf's pivotal quote
Mithrandir wrote:Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
The analogy you name is interesting, but I don't get the way you seem to argue that the parallel doesn't hold. Actually, the parallel does hold. Both Gollum and Judas were corrupted by the temptations of evil (respectively, the Ring and Satan). These temptations, for both of them, determine their acting and their deeds (so, in a way, you can call both their deeds 'evil'), but they still play a part in the grand scheme (of Eru Iluvatar, and God, respectively). That the doings of respectively Gollum and Judas were essential for the final eucatastrophe to occur, but their doings themselves (and the underlying intentions) are no less evil because of it. In other words: the deeds of both Gollum and Judas can be seen as evil deeds with unintended good consequences. Biblo's deed to spare Gollum can be judged as a good deed, not because it happened to have good consequences, but because it is not up to us to make judgements about life and death -- after all, 'even the wise cannot see all ends'. This is, again, a very Christian idea.

(Make no mistake, The Lord of the Rings is a very Christian story! Tolkien warned us against allegorical interpretations -- I know, but at the same time wrote
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
Even if we shouldn't see characters from Lords of the Rings as 'representing' real life or Biblical characters or events, the parallels are still there, and not unintentionally so.)
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Re: God is imaginary

#54 Post by t.a.j. » 23 Dec 2009 09:09

It seems unwise to me to completely exempt the consequences of an action from its moral evaluation.
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Re: God is imaginary

#55 Post by Orodaran » 25 Dec 2009 00:33

...which I would find unwise too but as I explain with Judas' actions the case was different since 1) Jesus was sent to specifically die, not to live to a ripe old age with a lifetime of teachings left behind and 2) Jesus himself knew already that he was to be betrayed, and that it was Judas.

And Joost, it's interesting what you said, I didn't really realized how deep were the connections between Gollum and Judas!
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~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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You Guys are Awesome!

#56 Post by Hansi Smurf » 25 Dec 2009 00:50

This is a really great thread! Much better than TV Church, that's for sure!

I agree that Jesus is Kayfabe-aware, and a savy Creationist too. He must've been crucified with total consent and total self-awareness, in order to become the Bright Morning-star, the King of Babylon, today's Sacred Global Emperor! (remember Orodaran, Jesus didn't die, and thanks to time-travel, is 6019 years old tomorrow!)

But who is the faceless God whom freed the Israelites from torment in Egypt? Miraculous food, miraculous clothing, total physical dominance, and just enuff verbal death-threats on behalf of heterosexual monogamy to be Universally Popular!

Yup, the God whom freed Moses and led Joshua! My personal hero, and together with a low-level Free Mason Initiation and a Canadian Elementary School Education, my key to having been converted to American Creationism!

Is the Man Named Creator your favorite writer? I think mine still must be Edgar Rice Burroughs?!?!

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Re: God is imaginary

#57 Post by Catanduva » 25 Dec 2009 22:57

Funny that this contradiction started when St. Paul and others, trying to atract greeks at any costs, picked some neoplatonic metaphysics (attached to a greek view of life, based in reason) and put it in a semitic religion (attached to a semitic view of life). Christian metaphysics is like an Aristotle's head in a Noah's Ark body. :)

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Re: God is imaginary

#58 Post by teo_guardian » 02 Feb 2010 02:45

Hansi is christian and he is better and smarter than all of you.
so you'd better start thinking of it again :mrgreen:

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Re: God is imaginary

#59 Post by ThePKH » 02 Feb 2010 02:49

I know a several atheists that are better and smarter than me as well. In fact, I know people who are better and smarter than me from all ideologies and religions. :D
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Re: God is imaginary

#60 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2010 08:11

Catanduva wrote:Funny that this contradiction started when St. Paul and others, trying to atract greeks at any costs, picked some neoplatonic metaphysics (attached to a greek view of life, based in reason) and put it in a semitic religion (attached to a semitic view of life). Christian metaphysics is like an Aristotle's head in a Noah's Ark body. :)
That is something of a gross simplification. When Alexander of Macedon, aka the Great rolled all over the middle east 300 years before Christian reckoning, he brought Greek thought and culture with him, starting what is generally called the Hellenic Age. During the time when the ideas that would become Christianity emerged among the Jews, Greek thought and philosophy was very much a presence in the area. When 700 years later, the Christians decided on a theology and a canon, Greek abstractionism and logic had long since been a factor in how both Christians and Jews understood their deity. Nobody was trying to attract Greeks at any cost. Greeks where rather unimportant during the first century of Christian reckoning, it was their culture that mattered. Greek was the language of culture throughout the middle east and that was the main reason why the Christian missionaries spoke Greek and used concepts from Greek thought in order to clarify what they meant. Concepts of unity and simplicity, unchangingness as of a "first mover unmoved" mashed well with Judeochristian monotheistic leanings and help flesh out the rather recent idea that not only were Jews only supposed to worship one god but that indeed there only was one god. Earliest Christianity was a hodgepodge of many, very different messianic movements, tracing their lineage to some dead messiah that eventually formed catholic and orthodox Christianity through a process of cultural assimilation lasting well into the middle ages. Different movements adopted different ideas present in the cultural and philosophical soup at the time and incorporated them into their often primitive theologies. As Christian ideological unification progressed, large figures appear on the field who formulate theological Doctrines such as St.Augustine of Hippe who can be considered the first truly Christian philosopher. His developed Theology shows the influences of neo-platonism but goes well beyond that into something which will determine Christian thought and doctrine for 600 years until the scholastics, in particular Thomas Aquinas bring aristotelian thought back into the mix.

As an aside, neo-platonism is very, very different from the philosophy of Aristotle and its very hard to imagine anything combining the two.
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Re: God is imaginary

#61 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2010 08:24

As a side note, Jesus is imaginary, too. Or rather, mythic.
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Re: God is imaginary

#62 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 02 Feb 2010 09:17

then tell people to stop calling me that.
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Re: God is imaginary

#63 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2010 09:38

Jesus is a proper name. Proper names can have many non-identical bearers. Context fixes references. You bear the name Jesus. We fixed that by context ;)
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Re: God is imaginary

#64 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 02 Feb 2010 10:12

is the context you are reffering to the one expressed in this photoshopped avatar my friends made of me?
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Re: God is imaginary

#65 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2010 10:15

That is part of that context, yes. Including the fixing.
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Re: God is imaginary

#66 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 02 Feb 2010 13:07

i don't think i'd look forgivingly at the prospect of being fixed
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Re: God is imaginary

#67 Post by TraneDeracs » 02 Feb 2010 18:26

I wish more people would understand that the Old Testament isn't "telling them" to do anything just because it contains a historical verse that has something sinful within it. It's also per the old laws of different histories according to God, not meant to be sought after in modern times...hence the peaceful nature of the New Testament and His Son, Jesus.

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Re: God is imaginary

#68 Post by End Of An Era » 02 Feb 2010 19:34

i wish more people weren't taking age-old fairytales seriously. :?

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Re: God is imaginary

#69 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 02 Feb 2010 19:56

Wrestling is NOT a fairytale, it's real!!!
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From the Institution:

#70 Post by Hansi Smurf » 26 Apr 2010 19:43

Yes, God, the Bible and Religon ARE legal FICTION, BUT, they are LEGAL, nonetheless.

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When You Read The Bible...

#71 Post by Hansi Smurf » 12 May 2010 02:52

When you read the Bible, you are literally being tested by Jah and His Presence.
Within the Invisible Landscape, He decides from His surveillance of you and your emotional and verbal responses whilst reading His book, whether you are still a Jew/Muslim/Christian, or like He, a Fellow Creationist!

What does Jah look like to me? A 7'2" mongoloid white male, ultramarine eyes, a clean limbed and trim, nearly modern championship physique, shoulder length blonde hair, slicked back, and possessing a voice pitched just slightly higher than WWE Superstar, the Big Show, but still relatively the same. Really, a slender, muscular giant of Iron Maiden's drummer Nicko McBrain, but with just a very leettle and tiny snub of a nose; and a very, very wide mouth, AND with slightly bigger lips than average.

Who Is As Jah has much the same hair as Jah, but is just a little bit bigger than Jah, and much, much more muscular; high-pitched and raspy-sounding, and very, very pointy-nosed, with ultrasmooth, plasticy, and naturally just off-white skin, in that yellowy-skinned blonde way common to many Slavic/Germanic/Ukrainiac peoples, like my own friends, the Eastern European rooted Donald Family. Unlike Jah, Who Is As Jah is a very popular caste form found thruout the White People's traditional lands, including Canada, and even amongst the women!

If you are somehow a less-experienced Bible-fellow than me, I guarantee you that His Presence will one day visit you and hypnotize you viz His having written your Bible by His Own Hand, His gentle demeanor, and His sweet voice and ultra-soft complexion; yet he is so big and so mysterious to you, AND you are all so oftentimes still so genuinely and unironically Evil-In-Principle, that you will actually get to feel like what it must be, to be a deer frozen in headlights!

"It's Mating Season When It's Mating Season." - "Yes Sir, Jah Sir!"

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Re: God is imaginary

#72 Post by Orodaran » 12 May 2010 13:55

More pills, less spamming, please
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#73 Post by Skyclad » 13 May 2010 16:12

Everyone that posted in this thread should watch Bill Maher's "Religulous". It's the best documentary I've ever seen on the hypocrisy and bullshit of religion.
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Re: God is imaginary

#74 Post by Led Guardian » 13 May 2010 17:29

Skyclad wrote:Everyone that posted in this thread should watch Bill Maher's "Religulous". It's the best documentary I've ever seen on the hypocrisy and bullshit of religion.
Just watched that. It's both awesome and hilarious!
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Re: God is imaginary

#75 Post by ThePKH » 13 May 2010 18:01

It was slightly disappointing though. Knowing Maher, it could've been alot better. Still worth watching.
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The New Lord's Prayer

#76 Post by Hansi Smurf » 13 Jun 2010 20:56

God? Why can't I have a polygamous harem of baby-making positive women, AND unlimited freedom from the male-sex, AND all without asking or working or doing or saying anything at all?

God, I hate Work and School and the Economy! Why won't you stand up for your own Public Education System and the Captain's of Global Industry's own disclosures too, and admit publically that I deserve a defacto Post-Industrialized Distinct Society status, and an Post-Industry income befitting my stature and intellect, rather than your paltry welfare, you fucking pimp, you!

Hurry up, or be Energy Neutralized, you pencil-neck geek!

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Re: God is imaginary

#77 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 22 Jun 2010 18:38

"The one sure way to make yourself unpopular in the Untied States these days is to mention the fact that Christianity and Democracy have been among the worst disasters to ever befall the human race." Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: God is imaginary

#78 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 12:25

A thought that, believe it or not, occoured me as I was awakening this day.

Let's go back to the book that puts the 300 movie to shame, the Old Testament; and let's exhamine the whole Moses vs the pharaoh thing.

So, we have God that wants the pharaoh to let the hebrews free, and sends Moses to strike a deal with the pharaoh, which (understandably) refuses to lose his slave labor.

Now, God is all powerful, nothing is impossible to him - a good example is what happened at the Babel tower, lot of people were there and he confused the minds and tongues of *everybody* - creating, therefore, an alteration in the minds of people and intervening directly on their brains reprogramming them to speak new languages.

So, since it's no problem to mess with the mind of MANY people, God could easily mess with the pharaoh's head - and make him change his mind on spot, or strike him with a divine revelation or seizure or whatever to make him change his mind on spot, but God prefers the long and theatrical way.... and thefore unleashes horrible plagues that start the horror genre long before cinema existed, persecuting the egyptian people with freak accidents like dead cattle, invasions of nasty insects, and the friggin' Nile turning into BLOOD.

And if that wasn't enough, the final masterpiece: since God is just and all loving, he decides to change the mind of the pharaoh (isn't he all knowing, and therefore aware that some blood and locusts wouldn't have changed the mind of the pharaoh?) with an act of mercy: he sends an angel to SLAY EVERY FIRSTBORN, and instructs people to mark the house where death should not pass with lamb blood - since you're in the mood for barbaric murder of innocents, why not let the animals suffer some of it too?

So, a lot of innocents die, the pharaoh gives up his slaves, changes his mind one more time, and as a result he gets drowned along with all his entire army on the Red Sea.


This leaves only with 2 conclusions:

1) God is a psychotic mass murderer that delights himself in letting innocent people and children die rather than operate on the mind of a single individual, like it happened many times at once at Babel
2) God knew that without the plagues Metallica wouldn't have written Creeping Death, this implying that he probably loves heavy metal.

But since Dio sang "Gods hate heavy metal" and Dio is never wrong (hey, his name means God in italian), I'll go with case 1 (A conclusion that is supported by other acts of mercy and love like leading Abraham this close to slay his son for the lulz, the first two humans being punished -along with their entire race forever and ever- for doing something they could have no knowledge of, and the entire annihilation by drowing of all the human race, save an old dude and his family that took care of making a backup of all the fauna of the planet before this).
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#79 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 13:21

I find it a bit weird, accusing God of cruelty, while at the same time you say that He doesn't exist.

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Re: God is imaginary

#80 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 13:34

Pointing out his abnormal cruelty and the problems with being omnipotent (he could change the pharaoh's mind just like he altered the brain's capacity of countless people to introduce new tongues at Babel) and being all knowning (he should have known that some blood and some locusts wouldn't have changed the pharaoh's mind) are one of the many ways to expose his non existance.

Like that funny story that makes scientific calculations about the weight of the sleigh and the presents, the time it takes to travel all around the world and all that stuff to conclude that "If Santa Claus ever tried to deliver presents, he's dead" - the whole point of it is not to assume the death of Santa, is to point out that he can't exist and he doesn't.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#81 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Aug 2010 13:34

Andreas wrote:I find it a bit weird, accusing God of cruelty, while at the same time you say that He doesn't exist.
I suppose to the right way to put it is this: If the god that most Christians profess to believe in existed and if what the believed about him was true (in particular, what is written about him in their bible), then he would be the worst thing ever to happen: an all-powerful, passive aggressive, tyrannical, egomaniac bully, for whom the things human beings value (life, health, love, family, security, happiness) mean nothing and who gladly tortures and murders people directly for no good reason and calls on his cultic clan of sociopaths to rape, stone, torture and maim their own and others and even to commit genocide. Truly there has not been a more terrible human ruler in all of history than the god described in the bible.
Good thing, then, that he's just figment of the imagination conjured up by a bunch of barbarians.
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Re: God is imaginary

#82 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 13:46

Orodaran wrote:Pointing out his abnormal cruelty and the problems with being omnipotent (he could change the pharaoh's mind just like he altered the brain's capacity of countless people to introduce new tongues at Babel) and being all knowning (he should have known that some blood and some locusts wouldn't have changed the pharaoh's mind) are one of the many ways to expose his non existance.
t.a.j. wrote:
Andreas wrote:I find it a bit weird, accusing God of cruelty, while at the same time you say that He doesn't exist.
I suppose to the right way to put it is this: If the god that most Christians profess to believe in existed and if what the believed about him was true (in particular, what is written about him in their bible), then he would be the worst thing ever to happen: an all-powerful, passive aggressive, tyrannical, egomaniac bully, for whom the things human beings value (life, health, love, family, security, happiness) mean nothing and who gladly tortures and murders people directly for no good reason and calls on his cultic clan of sociopaths to rape, stone, torture and maim their own and others and even to commit genocide. Truly there has not been a more terrible human ruler in all of history than the god described in the bible.
Good thing, then, that he's just figment of the imagination conjured up by a bunch of barbarians.
OK I can imagine your view on this is completely different from mine, but there's a really simple answer for all this. Who are we to decide what God should or should not do? Besides, since every human is just plain bad even before his/her birth, why shouldn't we deserve cruelty? I'm not a faithful christian but I do realise that I'm damn lucky I'm still alive. That there's billions of people on this earth is actually way more extraordinary than that there's been so many people who died a violent death.

Do with your information what you want, I just offered you guys a little inside view of how I was raised + my own logic. Yes, my own logic.

Like that funny story that makes scientific calculations about the weight of the sleigh and the presents, the time it takes to travel all around the world and all that stuff to conclude that "If Santa Claus ever tried to deliver presents, he's dead" - the whole point of it is not to assume the death of Santa, is to point out that he can't exist and he doesn't.
Santa Claus exists allright, he's only way less awesome than Sinterklaas.

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Re: God is imaginary

#83 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 14:03

Andreas wrote:OK I can imagine your view on this is completely different from mine, but there's a really simple answer for all this. Who are we to decide what God should or should not do? Besides, since every human is just plain bad even before his/her birth, why shouldn't we deserve cruelty? I'm not a faithful christian but I do realise that I'm damn lucky I'm still alive. That there's billions of people on this earth is actually way more extraordinary than that there's been so many people who died a violent death.
Why any god, out of the many invented by ancient civilization, should not get analyzed for what he supposedly does?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacr ... cific_gods

Here's a list of four aztec gods that required human sacrifice. I think everyone would just say "well, the aztec were a barbaric people", rather than even bothering to concede the possibility of existance of those gods that needed blood and the tears of children. But to someone who would still believe in those evil gods, we'd try to point out how cruel they were.

Why shouldn't the christian God be supposed to the same principle? why if we are allowed to criticize the cruelty of aztecan gods that "required" human sacrifices we cannot criticize atrociously evil deeds like

- Damning all humankind because a single couple of the species did something they could have not realized it was wrong
- Introducing death penalty for minor offences
- Drowing the entire population of earth
- Persecuting with death people who had no control over the decisions of a single ruler

And so on and on and on and on?

Furthermore, no human is plain bad before his / her birth. No human even EXISTS before his / her birth. Baby Hitler 1 month old was not evil and he was not destined in any way to be the main responsible of World War II; no rapist had raping insticts when they were in the cradle, and no serial killer was born with the desire of slaying the doctor that patted him on the back to make him breathe.

No one deserves cruelty for the mere fact of being alive and baby Hitler would not deserve to be killed either when he was 1 or 2 years old.

And the extraordinary factor of being alive today is due to the progresses made by science and medicine in the course of the centuries. Dying in the Middle Ages was so damn easier than today, when there were no vaccines and the concept of personal hygiene was to dump your evacuations down in the street. I'll tell you what is extraordinary for us, that we're born in a time when there is such a thing as anesthesia.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#84 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Aug 2010 15:20

Andreas wrote: OK I can imagine your view on this is completely different from mine, but there's a really simple answer for all this. Who are we to decide what God should or should not do?
That is not what I am doing. What I am doing is this: As a human being I care about certain things most other human beings care about, too. Thus, I estimate that there are certain things that - by and large - are value by humans. When now some agent violates the ability of human beings to acquire these things, I, as a human, judge them or their behavior as quite terrible. This is of course restrained by human perceptions, but then again, we have no other stand to take.
Yes, my own logic.
There's no such thing. There is only logic.
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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
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Re: God is imaginary

#85 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 15:26

Orodaran wrote: Why shouldn't the christian God be supposed to the same principle? why if we are allowed to criticize the cruelty of aztecan gods that "required" human sacrifices we cannot criticize atrociously evil deeds like

- Damning all humankind because a single couple of the species did something they could have not realized it was wrong
As a matter of fact, God warned them saying something like "hey if you gonna eat from that tree you're screwed". But why damning their offspring? I have no idea, but it's just the way it is.
- Introducing death penalty for minor offences
Never really understood that either, but I'm not gonna say that it's bad.
- Drowing the entire population of earth
Because they were being naughty.
- Persecuting with death people who had no control over the decisions of a single ruler
You've got to admit it was quite a statement. Almost like "you're next, if..."
Furthermore, no human is plain bad before his / her birth. No human even EXISTS before his / her birth. Baby Hitler 1 month old was not evil and he was not destined in any way to be the main responsible of World War II; no rapist had raping insticts when they were in the cradle, and no serial killer was born with the desire of slaying the doctor that patted him on the back to make him breathe.
IMO, a human exists already 9 months before its birth, but that's another topic.
And every human is plain bad from its first existence. I heard a strange story from my dad. Some scientists in America once did an experiment with children being locked up from their birth, to see if human beings are really bad from their nature. Turned out that the children were doing bad things without having seen any examples of misbehaviour. But I'm really curious to know more about this experiment, I hardly know anything about it. When I find it I'll post it here.
No one deserves cruelty for the mere fact of being alive and baby Hitler would not deserve to be killed either when he was 1 or 2 years old.
No one deserves cruelty indeed. But only humans can inflict cruelty, I don't consider God cruel when he gives people what's coming to them.
And the extraordinary factor of being alive today is due to the progresses made by science and medicine in the course of the centuries. Dying in the Middle Ages was so damn easier than today, when there were no vaccines and the concept of personal hygiene was to dump your evacuations down in the street. I'll tell you what is extraordinary for us, that we're born in a time when there is such a thing as anesthesia.
I actually meant that there's so many ways to die. A car accident, a hammer falling on your head from like 50 meters, a meteor just striking you. But yeah, when I was like half a year old, I had a disease that would've killed me if I was born 100 years earlier.

I do realise we're complete strangers when it comes to this topic, and that's a pity. I just hope to give you more understanding towards christians.

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Re: God is imaginary

#86 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 15:29

t.a.j. wrote:
Andreas wrote: OK I can imagine your view on this is completely different from mine, but there's a really simple answer for all this. Who are we to decide what God should or should not do?
That is not what I am doing. What I am doing is this: As a human being I care about certain things most other human beings care about, too. Thus, I estimate that there are certain things that - by and large - are value by humans. When now some agent violates the ability of human beings to acquire these things, I, as a human, judge them or their behavior as quite terrible. This is of course restrained by human perceptions, but then again, we have no other stand to take.
I do so too. I've already said several times that I don't consider myself a christian.
Yes, my own logic.
There's no such thing. There is only logic.
I'm afraid I used the wrong word. I meant that I also think about these topics, that I don't instantly believe what other people tell me.

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Re: God is imaginary

#87 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 15:43

Andreas wrote:
Orodaran wrote: Why shouldn't the christian God be supposed to the same principle? why if we are allowed to criticize the cruelty of aztecan gods that "required" human sacrifices we cannot criticize atrociously evil deeds like

- Damning all humankind because a single couple of the species did something they could have not realized it was wrong
As a matter of fact, God warned them saying something like "hey if you gonna eat from that tree you're screwed". But why damning their offspring? I have no idea, but it's just the way it is.
You can also say to children to not walk around on an unprotected balcony or not stick fingers into electric plugs and all kind of stuff, but that's not gonna stop them to do it. Imagine a child left alone in the house, he messes around with the steering wheel and the car slides down and tramples someone killing him. Who gets in trouble, the child for murder or the parents for bad parenting?

Adam and Eve are the first case ever of "bad parenting". The very eating from the tree of knowledge gave them the *knowledge* of good and evil. Therefore only then they could understand what was good and what was evil, they had no concept whatsover than eating from the tree was bad - just like a child won't get it if you JUST tell him "don't stick fingers in there" and you have to watch over him/her.

And for the damning of all their offspring to the 45000th generation, go to a hospital and somehow get allowed to be inside a room where a woman is giving birth. When she's there screaming with her legs wide open and blood everywhere, tell her than she's suffering so much because Eve accepted an apple from a talking snake. Tell me her reaction afterwards.
And the extraordinary factor of being alive today is due to the progresses made by science and medicine in the course of the centuries. Dying in the Middle Ages was so damn easier than today, when there were no vaccines and the concept of personal hygiene was to dump your evacuations down in the street. I'll tell you what is extraordinary for us, that we're born in a time when there is such a thing as anesthesia.
I actually meant that there's so many ways to die. A car accident, a hammer falling on your head from like 50 meters, a meteor just striking you. But yeah, when I was like half a year old, I had a disease that would've killed me if I was born 100 years earlier.
Wow, glad that you escaped the peril!

Now, this is a very excellent example.

You got a disease in a time where there was the cure for it - in a time when people studied and researched long enough to find a cure for it.

Now immagine the all powerful creator of the universe sitting there and just watching countless people and babies DYING from that disease, knowing in his almighty knowledge that only in the XXth century someone would have found out the means to fight that disease.

Maybe one day some people will find the cure for cancer - by researching and studying, even though if God supposedly "inspired" the Bible, he could "inspire" selected scientists with ideas and theories that would lead up to battling this horrible disease. Haven't you ever woke up thinking about something you didn't think about before? no scientist would ever know of a "divine inspiration" occoured in his sleep (resolving the problem of "you may take away free will if you manifest yourself to people").

Meanwhile, imagine the all powerful and benevolent creator of the universe watching countless people dying of cancer while only he knows, in his almighty knowledge, that by 2137 (example) the cure for cancer will be found.

How many people will die of cancer until then? how many good people will die of it? how many faithful believers will die of it? how many people that pray every night will die of it? how many clergymen will die of it? maybe a pope or two will die of cancer as well (as it already happened I believe).
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#88 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 15:59

Well I'm not gonna pretend that I've got the answers on your question, I just simply don't know.

There is a slight difference, however, between Adam and Eve eating from a forbidden tree and a child sticking its fingers into a plug while being told not to. Adam and Eve were told not to do so indeed, but then a little snake came and said hey why the hell not? And convincing them that it was a clever thing to do. It's not the kind of reasoning you might expect from a child.

As for deadly diseases, I can only tell you what I think what's the use of them. Those diseases make people think about their life and might push them in the arms of God. So from this point of view, it might also be seen as an act of mercy. I can perfectly understand why this is really hard to digest though.

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Re: God is imaginary

#89 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 16:02

Andreas wrote:There is a slight difference, however, between Adam and Eve eating from a forbidden tree and a child sticking its fingers into a plug while being told not to. Adam and Eve were told not to do so indeed, but then a little snake came and said hey why the hell not? And convincing them that it was a clever thing to do. It's not the kind of reasoning you might expect from a child.
TALKING snake, please. Let's be correct :wink:
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#90 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 16:04

Well you might have deduced that already from the quote I made from the snake :P

What makes me think about the following thing: if Adam and Eve wouldn't have listened to him, then probably snakes would still be able to talk today. And other animals aswell maybe. That would've been totally awesome.

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Re: God is imaginary

#91 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 16:08

That equals to saying "If only Isildur had destroyed the ring right after the defeat of Sauron in the Last Allegiance war".

In either cases, there wouldn't have been a fictional fantasy book to write.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#92 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 16:15

It's a bit harsh to say that about the Bible. There's no comparison between the Bible and Tolkien's work.

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Re: God is imaginary

#93 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 16:18

True. For example, Lord of the Rings has much better internal coherency, it gives a clear explanation of why the gods do not interfere with everyday's activities, it does not claim all of its unprobable stuff to be literally true, and the worst thing that may have ever happened in its name was some nerds dressing up as elves for a cosplay.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#94 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 16:36

I agree with you on the last part. There's been tons of retards killing in the name of God, sadly.

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Re: God is imaginary

#95 Post by Skrymir » 07 Aug 2010 16:38

Orodaran wrote:True. For example, Lord of the Rings has much better internal coherency, it gives a clear explanation of why the gods do not interfere with everyday's activities, it does not claim all of its unprobable stuff to be literally true, and the worst thing that may have ever happened in its name was some nerds dressing up as elves for a cosplay.
There is an evil metal band called Blind Guardian, they made some horrible noises (the youngsters call it "heavy metal") about it, that make teenages go to school and kill their mates.

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Re: God is imaginary

#96 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 07 Aug 2010 21:13

Go read God's Problem: How the Bibles Fails To Answer Our Most Important Question - Why We Suffer. By Bart D Eherman. Its an amazing book.
wade-newb wrote:It was just me, Blind Guardian, and a whole lotta awkward D:

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Re: God is imaginary

#97 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 07 Aug 2010 21:17

Orodaran wrote:
Andreas wrote:There is a slight difference, however, between Adam and Eve eating from a forbidden tree and a child sticking its fingers into a plug while being told not to. Adam and Eve were told not to do so indeed, but then a little snake came and said hey why the hell not? And convincing them that it was a clever thing to do. It's not the kind of reasoning you might expect from a child.
TALKING snake, please. Let's be correct :wink:
Many Biblical Scholars believe that the Adam and Eve creation story was just a story. Not actual Biblical fact and if you read it carefully at some point in time snakes had arms and legs. I actually just came across a strange Satanic book called "Serpent Race vs. Adamic Race" "3 parts, earliest history. Who are Adamites? What exactly is "Genesis"saying that everyone missed? Who are these "Satanic" or "Serpent people" who struggled against these other people?" Im gonna pick up a copy asap and see what its all about.
wade-newb wrote:It was just me, Blind Guardian, and a whole lotta awkward D:

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Re: God is imaginary

#98 Post by Orodaran » 07 Aug 2010 23:07

The whole damn Bible is just a story.

Every religious book of the world is just a story.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: God is imaginary

#99 Post by Andreas » 07 Aug 2010 23:16

Orodaran wrote:The whole damn Bible is just a story.
I concur.

This thread in a nutshell :D

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Re: God is imaginary

#100 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 08 Aug 2010 05:58

Orodaran wrote:A thought that, believe it or not, occoured me as I was awakening this day.

Let's go back to the book that puts the 300 movie to shame, the Old Testament; and let's exhamine the whole Moses vs the pharaoh thing.

So, we have God that wants the pharaoh to let the hebrews free, and sends Moses to strike a deal with the pharaoh, which (understandably) refuses to lose his slave labor.

Now, God is all powerful, nothing is impossible to him - a good example is what happened at the Babel tower, lot of people were there and he confused the minds and tongues of *everybody* - creating, therefore, an alteration in the minds of people and intervening directly on their brains reprogramming them to speak new languages.

So, since it's no problem to mess with the mind of MANY people, God could easily mess with the pharaoh's head - and make him change his mind on spot, or strike him with a divine revelation or seizure or whatever to make him change his mind on spot, but God prefers the long and theatrical way.... and thefore unleashes horrible plagues that start the horror genre long before cinema existed, persecuting the egyptian people with freak accidents like dead cattle, invasions of nasty insects, and the friggin' Nile turning into BLOOD.

And if that wasn't enough, the final masterpiece: since God is just and all loving, he decides to change the mind of the pharaoh (isn't he all knowing, and therefore aware that some blood and locusts wouldn't have changed the mind of the pharaoh?) with an act of mercy: he sends an angel to SLAY EVERY FIRSTBORN, and instructs people to mark the house where death should not pass with lamb blood - since you're in the mood for barbaric murder of innocents, why not let the animals suffer some of it too?

So, a lot of innocents die, the pharaoh gives up his slaves, changes his mind one more time, and as a result he gets drowned along with all his entire army on the Red Sea.


This leaves only with 2 conclusions:

1) God is a psychotic mass murderer that delights himself in letting innocent people and children die rather than operate on the mind of a single individual, like it happened many times at once at Babel
2) God knew that without the plagues Metallica wouldn't have written Creeping Death, this implying that he probably loves heavy metal.

But since Dio sang "Gods hate heavy metal" and Dio is never wrong (hey, his name means God in italian), I'll go with case 1 (A conclusion that is supported by other acts of mercy and love like leading Abraham this close to slay his son for the lulz, the first two humans being punished -along with their entire race forever and ever- for doing something they could have no knowledge of, and the entire annihilation by drowing of all the human race, save an old dude and his family that took care of making a backup of all the fauna of the planet before this).
There is one problem with this. In the Jewish Bible (the Old Testament) God was most definitely not all loving. In fact he was angry and vengeful and threatened violence all the time against the nation of Israel for disobeying him. God doesn't become all loving until the New Testament (and also stops being Jewish strangely enough). If you read the Old Testament you will find out that God is only out to protect the nation of Israel. So killing the first born of non Israelite people (the Egyptians) is totally cool and does not reflect poorly on God because hes not out to protect them.

Oro you should go read God's Problem. I think that you would really enjoying after reading your lengthy posts here.
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