America's failing liberal agenda

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t.a.j.
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America's failing liberal agenda

#1 Post by t.a.j. » 01 Feb 2010 09:13

The looming defeat of a progressive health care bill is a much greater disaster than meets the eye. The right wing will learn, as they already surmised from previous skirmishes, that they can blow the Democrats out of the water. They will use the same smear tactics, emotional lies, and talk radio campaigns to defeat whatever other progressive moves of any significance are left on the diluted and impoverished Obama agenda. And they will further water down whatever laws have been passed, the weak cap and trade bill for instance. Moreover, the right wing will use the same tactics during the forthcoming mid-term elections, as a dry run for 2012. By that time they will have convinced the masses that Obama was born on Mars, is a Soviet agent, and will take away the people’s right to shoot each other.

The liberals in response have been lame beyond belief. They have set up web pages that clarify the facts and provide corrections to misinformation—as if this was some kind of scholarly debate and the right and its followers will yield to the kind of corrections editors of scientific publications are prone to make. Liberals have called for a “stable, quality care” system, a phrase which has less appeal than last week’s dish water. They favor “evidence based policies,” a term that may excite a handful of policy wonks in a handful of think tanks. And they have been “negotiating”: making grand concessions to the other side without getting anything in return, just to show how conciliatory, bipartisan, and reasonable liberals can be.

The time has come for liberals to take off their gloves. A good place to start is to conduct hearings (Henry Waxman, where are you when we need you?) and town hall meetings fully dedicated to the ill doings of the private, profit-making sector. Lets hear about the sick who were denied care by insurance companies using one technicality or another; about private hospitals and clinics that pay recruiters to bring in patients from across the country in order to subject them to surgeries they do not need; about the health care dollars that are pocked by high salaried executives, their mistresses and sons in law, and back room backers; about elders allowed to wallow in their own waste to increase profits at nursing homes, and about other senior citizens who were refused treatments in order to hasten their deaths after they paid the assisted living facility’s high entrance fees. In short, liberals need to show that the private, profit-making sector is riddled with abuse, corruption, and malpractice. Only then will a public option shine.

If you feel at this point that such accusations are unfair, that one cannot generalize, that there are good people in the private sector, that public institutions also have some failings – then you should look in the mirror and see one reason the right wing is winning. This is not a theoretical debate which can be settled by checking the decimal points. At issue are overarching conclusions and basic sensibilities: is the profit-making sector a more trustworthy provider of health care than the public one? Should it at least face some public competition? The debate has to focus on this level and employ a language most people can be affected by—or we may as well wave another white liberal flag and not bother to join the fight. And a fight it is, with much more than the future of health care at stake.

From: http://blog.amitaietzioni.org/2009/08/l ... s-off.html
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#2 Post by West Virginia Mule » 01 Feb 2010 09:58

RUSH LIMBAUGH'S LETTER TO OBAMA:

I penned a message to Obama that I would like to deliver now.  Because Mr. Obama, I think it's time we had a heart-to-heart talk.  Let me be the father that you never had or never really knew, because I think you need some guidance.  It's time to man up.  It's time to grow up.  That speech last night was an embarrassment.  You couldn't focus, you lashed out in all directions, you refused to accept responsibility for your own actions, and you were angry.  

Being president is a big job.  It's a big responsibility.  You wanted the position, Barack.  You campaigned for it.  You told the public to trust you with it, and they elected you -- and you're now president of the greatest country mankind has ever known, and yet you act like this was all coming to you, like you deserve it, that you're better than the people you are supposed to serve and that you have no tolerance for debate or dissent.  That's not the way it works as president, Barack.  We have a Constitution, we have checks and balances, we have separation of powers, we have states -- and most of all, we have the people.  You don't get to impose your programs and policies on the nation and the people without our consent.  

This is a representative republic, not a banana republic, and let me remind you: Karl Marx and Saul Alinsky are not our Founding Fathers.  This is a nation built on individuality, built on liberty, free markets, and faith.  Yet you, Barack, demand fidelity to a different belief system: A system that crushes individual initiative and free will.  The president does not berate Supreme Court justices who are guests of the Congress and who have no ability to respond to your attacks.  You've made such a mess of things, Barack, and it's time to stop deluding yourself. It's time to stop blaming others.  You are delusional.  You are delirious.  It's time for you to assume the responsibilities of a president rather than pretending to be one.  

You've driven the nation's debt over the edge.  It is your responsibility to fix it now.  Otherwise, our young people will have no future.  You were wrong to grant terrorists constitutional rights. Even the libs in New York don't want the trial there now!  You, Mr. President, are endangering the security of this nation.  Now fix it!  Reverse course, and end the terrorists -- all of them -- back to Guantanamo Bay, where they belong.  You are wrong to nationalize one industry after another from automobiles to banks.  You are destroying competition and jobs.  You need to stop what you were doing before millions of more families go broke from your misguided policies.  It's not too late to stop this.  I know you're not going to stop it because last night you said you don't quit, and I know what you mean.  

You're gonna keep plugging for the same agenda, which is going to destroy this country even more -- which makes me think, Barack, that's your objective.  You know, Barack, unlike most presidents you're dealing with a Congress that has super majorities in both houses, fellow Democrats.  It amazes me that with all the talk about your ability to persuade and communicate, that you can't even hold your own party members together anymore.  Is that Bush's fault, too? Is it is fault of the banks and the insurance companies and the lobbyists that you can't keep your own Democrat Party unified -- or is it a problem with your leadership, Barack, or lack of leadership?  It's the latter, Mr. President. I'll tell you, you are not a leader. You are an agitator and an organizer, and a process guy, but you are not a leader.  It is you who are doing something wrong.  

The people in Virginia don't like it.  The people in New Jersey don't like it.  The people in Massachusetts don't like it.  The people in Massachusetts and all over the country have the ability to inform themselves outside of your sycophant press corps, and they are doing so.  Members of your own governing majority don't like what you are doing.  I mean, this calls for some self-reflection and some circumspection.  Has it occurred to you, Mr. President, even once that you're not as cool as you think you are?  Has it occurred to you that you are screwing up?  And if it has, are you happy about that?  Has it occurred to you that you have a great deal to learn and that you need to take your own measure, or are you Mr. Perfect?  Are you God-sent?  

Are you The One that you've been waiting for?  See, I have a little concern there may be a psychological issue at play here.  I don't say this to demean you, Barack.  I say it because I'm concerned.  I mean, Tom Daschle was always "concerned" and I like the word. I'm concerned.  You seem to have a whole lot of enemies, at least in your own mind.  A partial list would include Fox News, insurance companies, banks, oil companies, the "special interests," the Supreme Court, Republicans, talk show hosts, executives, anyone or any business that earns over $250,000 a year, mortgage companies, credit card companies -- and the list goes on and on and on.  You have the longest enemies list of anybody I've ever known.  

These people are not your enemies, though, Barack.  They are Americans.  They are part of this country.  They are part of what makes the nation work.  You are not.  You have nothing to do, and have had nothing to do, with this nation's greatness.  You can't lay claim to greatness on any scale, not even rhetorical.  But you have no direct relationship to the greatness of this country.  You are damaging the possibility of further greatness.  Nevertheless, like a bully, you continue to threaten all of these people.  The Supreme Court, Big Oil, Big Pharmaceutical, Big Retail, talk show hosts, Fox News, the list goes on.  You threaten anybody who does not agree with you.  You try to intimidate them.  You smear them.  Your sycophantic media goes right along and carries your water. But this is not what presidents do.  

You're supposed to lead not by threatening people but by encouraging them, by embracing them, by thanking them, by inspiring them.  Most of all you don't seem to appreciate the magnificence of this nation!  I know you don't.  The way you've been educated about this country it's painfully obvious.  You think this country is guilty, period. Guilty and unjust.  You seem to think this country needs to be torn down so you can rebuild it.  But you were elected to be president, not some kind of dictator.  You must operate within the confines of the Constitution.  You are not bigger than the law, and you are not bigger than the people.  You were elected to serve the people, not dictate to them.  Anyway, I'm sure this little lecture will not do you much good, particularly given the spectacle of your speech last night.  You really are full of yourself.  But I truly hope that this little talk does do you some good down the way, because something is going to have to change in you or we are doomed for at least the next three years.  
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#3 Post by t.a.j. » 01 Feb 2010 11:13

Wow. Thank you for proving my point. Did you realize how little argument was in that "letter"?

In ten years, when you - old, fat, psychotic and suffering from diabetes, an ulcer and high blood pressure - cannot afford a new health care insurance after having been kicked out from your old one because you were old, fat, psychotic and suffering from diabetes, an ulcer and high blood pressure, you will say to yourself: "Jackson, you fat old fool believed in the mad lies of greedy monsters and let them incite you against the one guy, who genuinely wanted to help you defend your rights as a human being." And there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And Rush Limbaugh will smile at you with his perfect teeth in his botoxed face and he will laugh the laugh of evil men and say: "Jackson, you fat old fool. You like my new teeth? Like my smooth face? Don't you think my suit looks amazing on me? Take a good look, after all you paid for it." And
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#4 Post by t.a.j. » 01 Feb 2010 11:16

More from Amitai, most American of American sociologists:
The opponents of Obama's Health Insurance for All Americans have given him a gift. They so overplayed their hand that they provided a golden opportunity for the president to show the American people how irrational, irresponsible and false their criticisms are.

Former New York Lt. Gov. Betsy McCaughey claims that the bill will "absolutely require" end-of-life counseling for seniors "that will tell them how to end their life sooner." Rush Limbaugh states that "People out of a certain age, with certain diseases, will be deemed not worth the investment and they will just -- as Obama said, they'd give them some pain pills and let them loop out till they die, and they don't even know it's happened." On his radio show, Sean Hannity stated: "You know, welcome to the brave new world of Obamacare. We're going to encourage, you know, inconvenient people to consider 'alternatives to living.'" Antiabortion leader Randall Terry calls it an attempt to "kill Granny."

The president could say something along the following lines: "Those who seek to prevent you from having health insurance -- whatever happens to your job, whatever preconditions you have -- are using some of the most underhanded, misleading arguments ever made, even in extreme cases of partisan politics. I realize that you are busy working or seeking work, taking care of your families, and discharging many other duties, and cannot examine the small print of complex legislation. Hence, it is often difficult for you to find out who is playing on your emotions, pulling the wool over your eyes, and lying outrageously.

"But here is your chance. If you just take but a few minutes, you can see the kind of falsehood those who oppose Health Insurance for All Americans use to scare you. The draft bill contains a small payment for doctors, so that if you wish, once in every five years, you may consult with your doctor, about what you wish he or she should do if you are dying. There is no requirement for you to do anything. There is no requirement for your doctor to do anything. There are a few dollars set aside for a consultation, to be paid by your insurer."

"Once you see how low the opponents of health insurance are willing to stoop, you will find it easier to see through their other misstatements -- and to let your Congress member know that you have not been fooled."
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#5 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 01 Feb 2010 11:29

Hence, it is often difficult for you to find out who is playing on your emotions, pulling the wool over your eyes, and lying outrageously...

"Once you see how low the opponents of health insurance are willing to stoop, you will find it easier to see through their other misstatements...
of course, that's assuming you want to make the effort, and it is an effort, of questioning those you trust, as well as those you do not, and ultimately to question yourself and the way you are making your decisions.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#6 Post by Led Guardian » 01 Feb 2010 21:18

West Virginia Mule wrote:You don't get to impose your programs and policies on the nation and the people without our consent.
Biggest misunderstanding of the Constitution that so many seem to accept. This is not a direct democracy. The people are not needed to okay every bill that goes through. The reason that we have this system and NOT a direct democracy is to keep the masses from making the decisions. The people have already given their consent: At the polls on Election Day. That is when the people give a candidate the thumbs up to enact that which they spoke of during the campaign season. The American people knew what President Obama wanted to do, and the majority elected him. For this entire term, he has the implicit consent of the people to enact his programs. Everything else is just politics, and any time he bows to the people during his term in office is simply to increase his chances of another term.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#7 Post by West Virginia Mule » 01 Feb 2010 22:50

BUSH/CHENEY 2012
(Jeb & Liz)
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#8 Post by West Virginia Mule » 02 Feb 2010 01:34

RUSH: Here's Obama, announcing, ladies and gentlemen, that we're screwed -- in his own way.

OBAMA:  Ten years ago we had a budget surplus of more than $200 billion with projected surpluses stretching out toward the horizon.  Yet over the course of the past ten years the previous administration and previous Congresses created an expensive new drug program, passed massive tax cuts for the wealthy, and funded two wars without paying for any of it, all of which was compounded by recession and by rising health care costs.  As a result, when I first walked through the door the deficit stood at $1.3 trillion with projected deficits of eight trillion over the next decade.

RUSH:  That is a lie.   By the way, Mike, we're going to go get audio sound bites five and six after that, I just decided. That is an out-and-out lie.  He said the same thing to Jeb Hensarling (R-TX) and the Republicans on Friday at the retreat in Baltimore, and Hensarling went on MSNBC today to put the lie to what Obama had said.  I've got those bites coming up.  But here once again: "It wasn't my fault. I didn't do anything! When I showed up here, Bush ruined the country. Bush did this, an entitlement program and all the tax cuts that weren't paid for. Bush did it. Bush did it!  All those irresponsible things were the previous administration."

He voted for all of it!  He voted for every spending bill that came up, from 2005 on.  You know, we've got a serious problem: A delusion.  We have a serious delusional problem here. And if the Medicare entitlement is so bad, if it's such a strain and drain on us then repeal it.  Just offer legislation to get rid of it, it's so bad.  Now, here's Jeb Hensarling. You just heard Obama say, "We arrived in office with a $1.3 trillion deficit and projected deficits of $8 trillion over the next decade."  Here's the truth: Obama's spending is much higher than Republican spending.  Obama is delusional, and being a little bit disingenuous -- and don't forget, nine years ago we were attacked on 9/11.

HENSARLING:  Well, either the president misunderstood the point or he just hasn't been well informed.  If you look at the 12 years when Republicans controlled the Congress, the average annual deficit was about $104 billion.  I'm not proud of that number.  That's too high.  But in the three years that Democrats have controlled Congress, the average annual deficit is now $1.1 trillion.  Do the math.  What used to be an annual deficit under Republicans has become a monthly deficit under Democrats.  And so when the president says, "I inherited a big deficit," I agree, but he inherited it from a Democratic Congress and only Congress can spend the money.  That's the point I was making.  Facts are facts, and maybe that's why he wasn't too happy with me.

RUSH:  At the retreat Obama actually implied Hensarling was lying in his question about this, but he's right. The Democrats ran Congress starting in 2007, all of 2008 -- and, of course, all of last year.  So, "Isn't the economy recovering?"  That was the next question that Hensarling got.

HENSARLING:  No jobs, no recovery.  I'm happy to see the GDP numbers, and I don't understand how you can slosh around so much money -- borrowing it from the future, bringing it into the president and not have an impact on GDP, so I'm glad to see that -- but if it's working, I guess it begs the question: Why does the president want yet another stimulus plan? I lose track, this is either Stimulus 3 or stimulus four when you throw in the whole government omnibus plan.

REPORTER:  All right.

HENSARLING:  I personally don't think it's working, and small businesses are wondering: How are we going to pay for this debt?

REPORTER:  Yes.

HENSARLING:  And so that's one of the reasons that job growth is inhibited.

RUSH:  So there is no recovery -- and trust me, there's not.  The 5.7% GDP that everybody was going crazy about on Friday, you watch. It's going to be revised downward a couple of times. That won't get much news.  CNN today, you will not believe their headline over the Obama budget story: "Obama Maps Route to Lower Deficits."  Obama maps route to lower deficits! Folks, let me tell you what this business is all about.  All of this he announced today was a prelude to massive tax increases to reduce the deficit that he created.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH:  Now, normally, folks, I wouldn't spend much time talking about the president's budget. One is submitted every year.  I mean, you can't get more boring than that, and you can't get into more minutia than that. But this is one of the biggest problems that people are having with Obama and therefore it is important.  People are fed up with this spending. They're scared to death of it. They know full well what it portends. It portends massive tax increases for years on us, our kids and grandkids. It weakens the country.  This is just an abomination.  Nine years ago we were attacked.  Barack Obama cannot tell the truth. Constitutionally, he's not capable of telling the truth.  He has increased the deficit, not by twice, not by three times, but by four times -- and it was not necessary.  

Barack Obama was the most liberal member of the Senate when he was there, so reported by the National Journal.  Folks, he's just incapable of being honest.  Last year's deficit surged to $1.42 trillion, more than three times the record of the previous year.  An imbalance of $454.8 billion in 2008.  So Bush's last year budget deficit was $454.8 billion.  Obama's budget deficit last year was $1.42 trillion.  That's nearly $1 trillion more that he added to it in fiscal 2009.  This business that he "inherited a $1.3 trillion budget deficit" is a lie.  It's a lie through and through.  He has added $1 trillion.  You did this, President Obama, not Bush, not the Republicans. You did this.  Now, like I said in my letter to President Obama last week: It's time to man up and take responsibility for your disastrous and dangerous decisions.  This is childishly immature.

To make all these decisions -- to do all this spending and to want credit for it in terms of reviving the economy and so forth -- and then in the same sentence say you didn't do anything, that it was all Bush?  Okay, so if you're going to say we're reviving the economy then we gotta give Bush the credit for that, huh?  Because you're going to say all this deficit spending is George Bush's?  That's physically not possible. It's economically not possible. It's mathematically not possible.  You did it, sir, and now you're trying to say that all that spending saved the economy from a total collapse.  But then you say you didn't do it.  That Bush did it.  You cannot have it both ways.  Here he is describing the tax increases that are coming.

OBAMA:  I proposed a fee on big banks to pay back taxpayers for the bailout.  We're reforming the way contracts are awarded to save taxpayers billions of dollars.  And while we extend middle-class tax cuts in this budget, we will not continue costly tax cuts for oil companies, investment fund managers, and those making over $250,000 a year.

RUSH:  Well --

OBAMA:  We just can't afford it.

RUSH: (laughs) Now you say that.  There aren't any middle-class tax cuts.  There are one-time tax rebates, but there aren't any middle-class tax cuts, and the middle class knows it.  So, yeah. He's going to eliminate $39 billion in tax breaks that the oil companies get, which is going to have an impact on what they do.  And he's gonna let the Bush tax cuts expire, which is gonna take the top marginal rate up to 39%, and depending on the state you live in, if you couple that with Medicare taxes and your state tax -- the people that grow the economy, the people that invest in small business -- the people that hire people are going to be paying an effective national tax rate of over 50%, which means they'll have fewer discretionary dollars to invest and grow the economy, which is exactly what President Obama suggests.  Now, in the budget -- which it's a record budget.

Here's a quote: "The budget incorporates healthcare legislation currently before lawmakers." The budget has "$646 billion in projected revenue from a controversial cap-and-trade climate change bill had been dropped from the budget, implying the White House is doubtful the measures will pass Congress," but the budget does incorporate "healthcare legislation currently before lawmakers." And, you should know, as we told you last week, that they are still trying for this.  They have not given it up.  The House and Senate Democrats are still plowing away behind closed doors and in secret to make their health care bill a reality.  But they have dropped... By the way, there weren't going to be $646 billion in projected revenue from cap and trade.  And, you know what?  They've got windmills in Minnesota.  

You know what?  The windmills have stopped working in Minnesota.  You know why?  Because it's cold!  So what are you going to do in Minnesota? When you get rid of all the coal-fired plants to provide electricity and heat, what are you going to do when the windmills freeze up and don't run because it's too cold?  It's just unbelievable.  Here's some other highlights: Obama on Monday "unveiled a budget that projected the 2010 deficit soaring to a post World War Two high of $1.56 trillion, or 10.6 percent of the economy, but falling steeply in following years to half that level by the time his term ends in 2012." Mmm-mmm. Mmm-mmmm.  That is to say, however, that Obama is promising that the deficits will go down right after he's reelected.

That's what he's promising.  Here's some highlights: "The budget forecasts cutting $1.2 trillion from the deficit over the next 10 years.  The largest saving will come from Obama's plan to allow 2001 and 2003 tax cuts on wealthy American families earning more than $250,000 a year to lapse on schedule next year, boosting revenue by $678 billion over 10 years," except that it won't.  Anybody want to take a guess as to why this tax increase will not produce that kind of revenue? (interruption) Yeah, you're exactly right.  Because when you tax an activity, you get less of it.  People are going to be less inclined to earn all kinds of money if over 50% of it is taken from them.  As such, I'll tell you something else is going to happen.  This is gonna cause an economic slowdown which means that the revenue produced by economic activity is going to go down.  

So that $678 billion revenue boost? You watch, just like they miscalculated these tax cuts and how much revenue they would produce -- they produced twice as much revenue as were forecast in a static way, particularly the capital gains tax cut. There was money flowing into Washington during the 2000s that people were stunned in Washington to see.  We don't know why they were stunned because it works every time it's tried.  By the way, this is known as "raising taxes." "Letting the Bush tax cuts expire" is known as "raising taxes," and this projection of $678 billion just happily assumes that people are just going to take it.  That these, quote, unquote, "wealthy Americans" will not change their ways to avoid the tax increase, which they will.  They'll find a way to avoid it or there will be some other result from it.  

It's not going to produce this kind of revenue and it's going to cause the economy even more trouble in getting restarted.  "Obama has proposed saving $250 billion from the budget by 2020," (scoffs) which is nothing, "by imposing a three-year freeze starting next year on domestic spending outside of national security."  Now, in truth, Obama is freezing a tiny portion of the budget that he has already jacked up to astronomical levels, and so they're going to be frozen at these high levels.  I mentioned to you last week: He's locked in these massive budget increases by saying that now there's going to be a freeze. "The budget will identify 120 federal programs to curb, including the NASA space agency's Constellation project to develop human spaceflight and return an American to the moon." Now, it's funny how nobody in our great and terrific watchdog media have noted that Obama is reneging on a campaign promise made back when Florida was very much in play between himself and Mrs. Clinton.  

When Florida was in play, Oh, yeah! Manned space flight? I'm all for it. We're going to go for it." Now he's turning NASA into a monitoring agency for climate change, and you know what we've learned now?  We've furthermore learned that this Himalayan stuff -- the fallacious report of the melting glaciers up there -- was based on one student's dissertation, which led to UN's IPCC to adopt that belief.  The whole thing is a hoax.  Only Obama does not see it that way.  Look, I could go on and list all of these things, but it adds up to: More income redistribution, higher taxes, a declining standard of living, exactly what Obama intends.  There's two things: This budget also has elements in it that should be called the Reelect Incumbent Democrats Act of 2010.  That's what I think it should be called.

"With women's advocacy groups voicing growing unease with administration policy, President Barack Obama will propose a $3.8 trillion budget on Monday that would exempt programs for women and girls from spending restrictions he's proposed for other programs." So just as the unions have been exempt from paying taxes on their health care plans, "women and girls" are being exempted from "spending restrictions," i.e., the freeze.  "Obama aides denied political calculation was behind the emphasis on programs for women and girls, detailed in a budget document obtained by McClatchy..." This is  no more than political hackery, and then there's this: "President Obama proposed a $33 billion package of tax breaks Friday aimed at encouraging small businesses to hire new workers, the latest in a string of administration attempts to accelerate job creation," and they interview some small business people here in the Washington Post, and it's clear that tax breaks are not what lead people to hire.  Growing businesses, a growing economy, an expanding economy is what causes people to hire -- and that is not happening.  

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH:  A $33 billion tax break plan to boost jobs.  This is not how you boost jobs.  In fact: "The National Federation of Independent Business said a well-intentioned..." See, they're trying to be nice and not make little Barry Soetoro mad "[A] well-intentioned tax credit proposal is not going to convince small business owners to add jobs if they don't have work for those employees to do."  It's just that simple.  Obama doesn't understand that.  To Obama, jobs are what businesses have to do morally so people have health care or so that people have income.  That's what businesses are for, and to be raped by government.  That's their purpose.  Now, as you listen to all the news reports of Obama's $3.8 trillion budget, which goes up to Capitol Hill today, the Heritage Foundation wants you to listen intently for a couple of points. 

Obama's making a big deal out of the fact that there are "spending freezes" in the budget.  You'll hear him talk about a "spending freeze," but if you listen closely you'll learn that the freeze is only on one-eighth of the budget.  And within the seven-eighths that are not frozen, Social Security and Medicare are front and center.  Now, review and analysis of Obama's proposed budget is almost immediately available to Heritage Foundation members.  They stand for reduced government among other principles.  So looking through this charade is tough on them, but they are thorough.  If you want a breakdown of just how rotten and horrible and damaging this budget is, the Heritage Foundation report is where you should go.  Their researchers are all over it so that you can understand it all and see the truth for what it is.  But you gotta become a member.  There's always a catch to good stuff.  You gotta become a member but it's only 25 big smackers each year.  Go to AskHeritage.org and make yourself a member today like I am.  Everybody wants to be me and you can get close to that by doing things I do, and this you can do.  Go to AskHeritage.org and become a member.  You choose the level of contribution you want to make.  This is one area where there is no government mandate.  AskHeritage.org. Go online today.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: Audio sound bite time.  Now, this is, I guess, what we've come to expect.  Here's Obama saying that he "rejects grandstanding." But this sound bite, as you will hear, lays the groundwork for massive tax increases.  He insists he's cutting the deficit.  Just listen to this.  It speaks for itself, but even despite that I will provide instant analysis.

OBAMA:  We simply cannot continue to spend as if deficits don't have consequences, as if waste doesn't matter.

RUSH:  Stop.

OBAMA:  Is it the hard-earned --

RUSH:  Stop it.  Recue it.  Who has been doing that?  This is surreal.  "We simply cannot continue to spend as if deficits don't have..."? Well, nobody's been doing that but you, sir, and your Democrats in Congress.  Nobody is suggesting but you all of this spending.  This is Machiavellian.  This is delusional.  How stupid does he think we are?  How dumb does he think we are?  "We can't continue to spend" as though he just arrived?  Is this his first day on the job?  His deficit last year is $1 trillion higher than George W. Bush's projected deficit -- $1 trillion higher!  It's almost three times what Bush's deficit was -- and it's Obama's spending and his proposed spending that did it. Okay, here's the whole bite.

OBAMA:  We simply cannot continue to spend as if deficits don't have consequences, as if waste doesn't matter, as if the hard-earned tax dollars of the American people can be treated like Monopoly money, as if we can ignore this challenge for another generation.  We can't.  In order to meet this challenge, I welcome any idea from Democrats and Republicans.  What I will not welcome, what I reject, is the same old grandstanding when the cameras are on and the same irresponsible budget policies when the cameras are off.  It's time to hold Washington to the same standards families and businesses hold themselves.  It's time to save what we can, spend where we must, and live within our means once again.

RUSH:  Folks, I'm having trouble not using profanity here.  This is just an out-and-out, bold-faced lie.  I said it this morning.  This has no grounding in reality.  He has just -- if we're to take this seriously and connect the dots -- ripped himself to shreds.  He's just given us a bunch of reasons not to reelect him.  He just talked about how irresponsible he has been.  That's what you're doing here.  He doesn't welcome any idea from Republicans.  "What I will not welcome is the same old grandstanding."  Grandstanding?  He is the only one who grandstands.  Republicans can't get enough coverage to grandstand.  When's the last time you saw a Republican get any meaningful coverage on TV to grandstand or look like an idiot, either one?  You don't see it.  "It's time to hold Washington to the same standards that families and businesses hold themselves. It's time to save what we can, spend what we must, and live within our means"? as though he just took office today?  He is ripping his own administration and policies to shreds, while trying to make you think that all of this is the result of George W. Bush. 
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#9 Post by Skyclad » 02 Feb 2010 02:07

We lost our health care about a year and a half ago. Every doctor's office call is 90 bucks... some meds I had to take were $1.60 per pill and the culture my doc took a month ago? 190 bucks. The problem with health care isn't Dems or Libs, it's its own worst enemy with bloated prices like that. I have to get a CAT scan soon and bloodwork... I'm thinking about a thousand bucks right there. I say they either force the medical world to be reasonable, or give it to everyone free. Not everyone that needs it is a lazy asshole sitting at home doing nothing. There's people out there working their ass off that have no insurance.

I also tink free health care would create jobs since new businesses wouldn't have to worry about that extra cost at all.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#10 Post by West Virginia Mule » 02 Feb 2010 07:06

Britton, don't think that just because people oppose the current ObamaCare bills we think the healthcare system here is perfect. Fuck, no. There are so many things that can be done to improve it, but the ObamaCare method is not the way, giving the government control of your health and--by extension--your life is not the way. And man, you know there ain't nothing "free" for anyone in ObamaCare. Anyway, hope everything works out okay.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#11 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2010 07:27

Think about how one makes money by providing health insurance. People pay you a fee and you pay their medication and treatments when they get sick. What kind of customers do you want? Young, healthy people to who you can sell the illusion of health care as a status symbol (when I get sick, I will have my own room). Simply put, private insurance companies have every incentive to weed out those people that really need health care while binding those who have the means to pay without being likely to get sick. Health care and health insurance is not something where a market can deliver a good result. A good health care system is a completely public system of solidarity of the healthy with the sick. If you are against this, you are against health, life and human dignity. You are, in short, pretty much a bastard.
Last edited by t.a.j. on 02 Feb 2010 08:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#12 Post by West Virginia Mule » 02 Feb 2010 08:00

You really live and die for how the American healthcare system will work. Life must really suck in your hole of the world for you to obsess over us so much. Your opinion means shit to me. You and all of Europe mean shit to me. You're enemies cheering on the liberal destruction of my country and my life. The only reason you care is to see our lives destroyed, to see flames roaring from coast to coast. Because you hate America and Americans, you fill your life with dreams of our annihilation. You champion government-controlled serfdom and the eradication of the concept of freedom. You possess no morality or values that aren't a perversion of the very concept. You take personal information entrusted to you and abuse me with it. You accuse America of war-mongering when we stand up to oppose the evil that exists in this world, yet your people are one of the most vile, twisted, and purely evil people ever to make a black smear of seared flesh across the history books. You think your opinion matters, but you're just a little boy in a meaningless country pretending you're a smart little demon.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#13 Post by West Virginia Mule » 02 Feb 2010 08:05

This is what you wanted, and now you have it.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#14 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2010 08:26

Again, thank you for making my point. You have no argument, no reason. All you have is psychosis and hate.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#15 Post by Joost » 02 Feb 2010 08:33

West Virginia Mule wrote:Britton, don't think that just because people oppose the current ObamaCare bills we think the healthcare system here is perfect. Fuck, no. There are so many things that can be done to improve it, but the ObamaCare method is not the way, giving the government control of your health and--by extension--your life is not the way. And man, you know there ain't nothing "free" for anyone in ObamaCare. Anyway, hope everything works out okay.
But what kind of system would you propose then? After all, there ain't such a thing as a free lunch...

(Or would you be happy with the system as we have it in Netherlands, where health care is essentially private (you can choose at which company to insure yourself/which policy to take, there used to be a 'government policy' for people unable to pay private insurance, but not anymore), but where people receive a basic amount of money from the government, so that they are at least able to insure themselves?)


And again, Thomas and Jackson, it would be nice if you could have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#16 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 02 Feb 2010 09:37

public healthcare isn't exactly the perfect Gene Rodenberry world it sells itself to be, but i'd be frightened to my bones to live in a country where i wouldn't have health insurance right now just because i'm a student and can't work at the moment.

privatizing things is dangerous. Rush was right in saying that governments have checks and balances. these are made to prevent any one party, group or individual from earning too much from any given action.

try the concept of privatizing police departments, imagine that! no criminal will get away because now we pay them per bad guy cought! yay! and tougher management, more dedicated to bringing in the numbers! they will also have better equipment because they will have private investors...
wait, so private investors finance the departments? does that mean they are above the law? and if the cops get paid by how many criminals they catch, can you really trust them to be ethical about it?

some things are better left to be handled by the beurocracy laden entity that is democratic government.

ooh, better idea! lets privatize the fire-brigades and pay them per square feet of fire that they put out. we can also then fine them for the carbon emissions, it's perfect!!!
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#17 Post by wade-newb » 14 Mar 2010 20:20

you're now president of the greatest country mankind has ever known
May I ask why this may be?
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#18 Post by Belgarion » 14 Mar 2010 20:35

Because he has never been to another country.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#19 Post by Desert_Storm » 06 Apr 2010 20:37

West Virginia Mule wrote:The only reason you care is to see our lives destroyed, to see flames roaring from coast to coast. Because you hate America and Americans, you fill your life with dreams of our annihilation.
Damn, he has seen right through me :shock:
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#20 Post by Mandarb » 07 Apr 2010 04:17

You know, WVM, ask the people in the UK, Sweden, or even in Hawaii U.S. of A., if they want to give away their public healthcare system. Forget it. Some might moan about it, but they would moan louder if they had your kind of private care.

As you might know, we live in a capitalistic world. And as you might know, every companiy is a capitalistic construct. And the goal of such a construct is not your wellfare, your good feelings, it is your money. And every way to get that money, and to get more of it, is ok with it. Capitalism is neither moralic nor ethnic, those are things it does not know. Wether you get Economic Ethnics in University or not, it's a joke, since it's the complete opposite of what you get told in all the other classes.

Then you need the state, i.e, the people, to step in and set boundaries, and provide an equal playing field by providing laws and upholding those. What all right wing governments seem to be doing over the world, deprave the state of its income, and thus depraving the people of its services, is nothing less than to avoid the trickling down of money, that in the beginning flowed upwards first from the consumers, the people, to them. It helps them secure their own status and that of their offspring: if only they can go to good Universities, they face much less competition, and have thus a much greater chance of getting those overpayed jobs. And, following the logic of capitalism, those super-universities are not going to let only the "most intelligent" in, it's about how much money their parents "donate" the university.

How does that have anything to do with the american constitution? Aren't in there great words of freedom, equality, equal chances and the right to "chose your own life"? How can you speak about equality when you take away the people's chances in life, just because they simply have no possibility to come by good education, because their parents certainly don't have the money. And is it the child's fault if its parents are poor? Is this the greatly-proclaimed "self-responsibility"? No, it is the right to chose wether or not you want to undertake that education, and wether or not you are intelligent enough. Because, after all, we would like to have intelligent people lead our companies, and not idiots with an overinflated-selfesteem that think everything they say is right, because they say it, since they are themselves and they are, naturally, better than anyone else. It is also the honey that the right wing people like to use to "bait" their votes: How is someone, who thinks he's better than anyone else, just because he's American, or French, or Swiss, or any other nation, going to improve himself? Not necessary, that person is already better and has reached the pinnacle of "humankind", and thus must not question his own actions.

How can those big words, that those right wing people so much like to utter, have anything to do with what they are actually doing? Lowering taxes by a couple more percent. A poor family, maybe even working with a couple bad, underpaid jobs, will give them only a couple dollars more to live of. And what do they lose in welfare? Are the public schools becoming better? No, they have less money and need to cut down their budget even more. And the rich? He can put a couple more supercars into his garage, that he never drives. He can inject the money back into the economy (which wouldn't be a bad thing as is), but since investors want an increase in their interest each year the companies are forced to get that increase from somewhere. And how do they increase their turnover? Since the market isn't growing as fast as interest rates, the money must come somewhere else.

People scream about foreigners taking their jobs, flamed by the right wing parties. While in fact, most jobs are outsourced to india or china. So, in a way they are right that foreigners take their jobs, but not in their homecountry. And it's not like those people want to work for the bad wages they get, or under the bad working conditions they have. And there do the cuts serve as a means to satisfy investor demand after higher interest and growth figures, and "bridge" the gap between "expectation" and "reality". Sad thing though is, investors then believe even bigger growth figures are possible, and demanding those. And now guess how those demands can be met. Oh yes, and getting tax cuts through is just another means to keep the money together so the investors don't run away to other companies that can yet still meet their lunatic demands (the interest rates have come from 25% a couple years ago to close to 40%. Very nice.)


Is the diminishing of the middle-class caused by the outrageous taxes, or maybe because the lower-classes of the middle-class earn less and less (or at least keep earning as much while inflation is driving everything up), and have less possibilities to send their children to universities since those become more and more expensive, becoming more exclusive. Nothing for such mundanes such as the middle-class.

And where exactly would we return to? To the middle-ages. Now with Royality2.0, not determined by blood, but by wealth, which, just as blood, is inherited. The very thing the "Renaissance" destroyed to allow the people to become their own masters. How are you to climb up into this circle of illustrous people, if you have no possibility to help yourself to that education, nor can you help your children because you can not save as much as you would need to, since with your shitty education, you get no well-paying jobs.



Then those people say it's our right and freedom to consume, and it is also our duty as good citicens (wait, wasn't there something about freedom?). But, tell me, how can we consume and consume even more and more, if we do not have unlimited ressources? We're sitting in a small nutshell, and we're breaking the shell apart. It would work if we could recycle everything 100%, but we do not have that technology. The whole logic that is sold to us is completely flawed. Just as communism was flawed.


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Edit: also t.a.j, you're right. Obama wants to make concessions to the Republicans (and inside the democrats, as, obviously, being democratic means expressing his own convictions :p ), due to those concessions that the Republicans want, the bill grows and grows, and once it has been mended and mended due to this it has become bloated up, then the Republicans use the "bloatedness" of the whole thing, that they themselves mostly caused, to renounce it. Nicely played though.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#21 Post by Webmaster » 07 Apr 2010 07:12

Mandarb wrote:You know, WVM, ask the people in the UK, Sweden, or even in Hawaii U.S. of A., if they want to give away their public healthcare system. Forget it. Some might moan about it, but they would moan louder if they had your kind of private care.
You mean the broke state of Hawaii that doesn't even have enough money to have schools open five days a week? I wonder if maybe, just maybe, that paying for everyone's healthcare contributed to this? And personally I do not want to be taxed as much as people in the UK or Sweden just to pay for other people's healthcare. Cut my taxes and let me pay for it myself.

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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#22 Post by Palantyre » 07 Apr 2010 09:22

Webmaster wrote:And personally I do not want to be taxed as much as people in the UK or Sweden just to pay for other people's healthcare. Cut my taxes and let me pay for it myself.
Yeah, just fuck those poor people who need the healthcare but can't afford it. As long as you don't have to pay some more taxes, all's well!
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#23 Post by Webmaster » 07 Apr 2010 09:27

Palantyre wrote:Yeah, just fuck those poor people who need the healthcare but can't afford it. As long as you don't have to pay some more taxes, all's well!
You are aware that no one is denied emergency room care, aren't you?

Plus can you tell me where it says in the Constitution that the U.S. government has the right to force people to buy health insurance, or buy anything for that matter? This is exactly what is mandated in the Obamacare bill.

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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#24 Post by Palantyre » 07 Apr 2010 09:42

You are aware that no one is denied emergency room care, aren't you?
Yes, I am quite aware of that.
What I'm not aware of, however, is how emergency room cases encompass the entirety of "needs healthcare".

But good job sidestepping my point. Truly you are a verbal ninja.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#25 Post by Mandarb » 07 Apr 2010 09:48

Webmaster wrote:
Palantyre wrote:Yeah, just fuck those poor people who need the healthcare but can't afford it. As long as you don't have to pay some more taxes, all's well!
You are aware that no one is denied emergency room care, aren't you?

Plus can you tell me where it says in the Constitution that the U.S. government has the right to force people to buy health insurance, or buy anything for that matter? This is exactly what is mandated in the Obamacare bill.
Emergency Room care, yes, that is not denied. You still do owe them the money, don't you? Oh fuck, now you're ruined... ;) What about someone who has cancer? That doesn't fall under "Emergency Care".

And as far as I know, you don't have to take the "Public Option". You can stay with your private insurance.

And the "force people to buy something".. How much do you earn per year? I am pretty sure you do not earn that much to afford all the treatments your insurance will be able to avoid paying once you do get sick. And the only way you can truly come forward with this argument is if you're damn rich and fear the evil taxes are going to reduce your wealth. Luckily, the media is owned by some great people who themselves do fall into the cathegory that could not profit from a public option, and thus, drive that huge campaign against it. Just watch out the interviews from tea-party rallies: They ALWAYS utter the phrase "They shove it down our throat"

And you, dear Sir, are either very rich, and can thus profit from it, or you are a poor sod, even made poorer by the fact that you actually believe the lies they tell, and deprave yourself of something that should be rightfully yours.

I couldn't really mind less, but the problem is: many of our wealthy people, some of them in politics, look over at the USA and drool at your super-high BIP. Completely blending out the fact that this BIP comes at a cost: social problems, equality problems, the fact that 70% of that BIP is generated by trading titles at the exchange. Made out of thin are through the common believe that the economy can only do better. They just fap off at all the money that can be made and blindly change us to become like the USA. I just love it.

Edit: also, the "broke state of Hawaii" doesn't provide the healthcare, it just provides the law that an employer is required to provide healthcare if the employee is employed for more than, I think, 12h a week. The state pays not for it. Also, by your logic... tell me.. how broke are the USA as a whole?

And don't tell me Obama is responsible for the whole dept. He wasn't the guy who lowered taxes, and at the same time started spending billions more on the military.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#26 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Apr 2010 09:59

Sidequestion: Who pays the bill for the emergency room care?

But more generally, this is not about emergency care. It is about prevention, early discovery, about long term conditions that can easily be made lighter or even cured given long term treatment. The kind of medical care that will make many emergency treatments unnecessary.

I guess the logic of counting costs and assigning individual responsibility has not clouded moral sentiment so much that refusing to treat someone's in actu heart attack is considered ok. Refusing to prevent it from even happening, that seems much less loaded with drama and easier to mistake as justified. It is a failure of reason.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#27 Post by Webmaster » 07 Apr 2010 10:36

I guess we all just disagree on very fundamental things. I am sorry if "poor" people cannot get health insurance (or choose not to get it) but is that my problem? I don't want an even bigger nanny state trying to take care of everyone.

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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#28 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Apr 2010 12:18

No one in his right mind, who could get reasonable health insurance wouldn't.
But that's hardly the point.

It is your problem, because those people play a part in the economical macrostructure which supports you.

Two rather simple connections in a vast and complex network:
Unemployment allows companies to put pressure on workers, keeping wages low, allowing higher profits or lower prices.
Low wages workers do most of the essential labor: Nursing, street cleaning, hard manual factory labor, ...

Both the working poor and the jobless poor have a function in the system. They not just "drop out" or "fail" or even "chose to fail". If no one would be that position, not only the lives of those people would be different, but the lives of those much higher in the "food chain" would be different, too. We are not independent from one another and the welfare of the richest of the rich depends on the poorest of the poor. In my mind, that brings with it a moral obligation to not close one's eyes to the (avoidable) suffering of those others one is connected to in the economic macrostructure.

The way I see it, public health care is like decent minimum wages, opposing them is a moral failing. People deserve health as much as being able to live a dignified life from a day's honest labor.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#29 Post by Webmaster » 07 Apr 2010 12:21

t.a.j. wrote:No one in his right mind, who could get reasonable health insurance wouldn't.
There are many (young) people in America that can afford health insurance and choose not to pay for it because they consider themselves healthy and rather spend their money in other ways.

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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#30 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Apr 2010 12:33

right mind & reasonable health insurance

I wouldn't give money to bastards who can just stop paying for my health care when I do need them.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#31 Post by Webmaster » 07 Apr 2010 13:08

And you don't think that if the government ran your health care that they would deny service if it didn't make financial sense for them? This already happens in Canada and the U.K. where certain drugs and/or treatments are denied because they are on the government black list.

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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#32 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Apr 2010 13:45

Money is always limited so some thing cannot be paid for for all. That much is true but that is hardly an argument for paying for nothing. Also, as medical technology progresses, treatments get cheaper and easier and you can speed up that progress by investing into medical research.

And there is a big difference in having to take the cheaper meds rather than the more expensive ones compared to not getting meds at all.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#33 Post by Webmaster » 07 Apr 2010 13:53

Sometimes there are no cheaper meds. I don't want the government having boards of people deciding which meds I can get based on my age or so. These are the so called (and rightly so) "Death Panels".

And one question t.a.j., are you in the U.S.A.?

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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#34 Post by t.a.j. » 07 Apr 2010 14:07

I'd rather have a board appointed by a democratically elected government, against which I can appeal making that decision than be the subject of financial interests against which I am very much powerless.
And I do not see what where I am from has to do with any of this, apart from offering an opportunity for an ad hominem.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#35 Post by Desert_Storm » 07 Apr 2010 15:21

Webmaster wrote:I guess we all just disagree on very fundamental things. I am sorry if "poor" people cannot get health insurance (or choose not to get it) but is that my problem?
Yeah, pretty much. Those "poor" people who cannot afford fundamental things like a health insurance are part of your society, and when society failed to provide any assistance its pretty much your moral obligation to change that. Of course you can deny that and apply your argument on any case like for instance when you walk by a lake and see some kid drowning in there:
"I am sorry if "poor" kids didn't learn to swim but is that my problem?"
It's pretty much the same principle, just that when it comes to insurance, charity and matters alike, the scales are bigger and anonymity prevents the emotionality that would lead to a feeling of responsibility in every normal human being walking by a drowning child.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#36 Post by Mandarb » 07 Apr 2010 17:45

Aye. Let's just take Switzerland. We do not have public healthcare, since we voted against it, but in favour of a compulsory basic private insurance, and insurers can not refuse you for the basic insurance type. However, they can exclude you from private care if they wish to (well, if you are in they can't get rid easily of you, but you won't get in if you happen to have the slightest "precondition").

It has the benefit that everyone is insured, and, since everyone has insurance, the insurance companies undertake efforts (imagine this) to help their customers lead a healtier life (for example, some insurances pay a part of your gym fee).

Now we have the issue that insurance fees are rising by at least 10% each year. Now they want to pass a law that people with a high franchise can change insurance companies only once every two years, instead of every year. Insurance companies get you your revised contract at about the same time, so you can chose to stay or change to another insurer if you think your fee was raised too much. Now what then can happen is easy: people who do not have that much money take the cheaper insurance, and have a higher franchise to keep the prices even lower. After a year the insurance massively raises fees, but you are not allowed to change and are now stuck with an expensive, shitty insurance. They argue too many people are changing insurances and it costs too much money migrating them. Which is rather untrue, as there's not even that many people who use that possibility.

The high costs of healthcare though are not the fault of the insurance companies. People, as people are, demand for themselves the best care possible, which means they want to include more and more into the basic insurance. And pharmaceutical companies make an assload of money with their medications. Which is the main problem. Of course they are entitled to their royalties and their patents, and vaving patents would discourage companies from research, as someone could just use their research free of charge, without the need to get the money spent on development back in, leading to a cheaper product as compared to the original. But the current prices for medication are sometimes outrageously high, and could be easily much lower. Just check out Daniel Vasella, CEO of Novartis. He has become quite fond of himself and regards himself as the best CEO that has ever been. While in fact, the only thing he does is being enough ruthless to gain as much profit as possible from sick people who need help. He even got an inhouse rainforest made in the main building at headquarters. Needless to say that the rainforest was dead within a year. Now he has a normal, temperate forest in there.


The problem is just: you have been tricked into believing that the private sector does everything better than the public sector, and that the public sector is pure evil and will eat your soul, granny, and puppies. Although it is exactly the other way around.

Oh, yes, there are certain very very expensive treatments that are excluded from coverage. But guess what, they are MORE LIKELY to be excluded from your private contract aswell, as they have no moral obligation to help you. It costs money, it's more expensive than the sum of the insurance fees you've been paying over the last 10 years to them, so you're not getting it. Of course you could be so rich that it doesn't matter, that you can get replacement organs on a day's notice (and it doesn't bother you that it probably comes from some poor sod in India who has been either abducted and had his organs removed, or tricked into believing he could live with just one kidney without problems.)

And as Desert mentioned, the poor are poor for a reason, and it's mostly not their failing. There is NO possibility that we can employ everyone:

1. not enough ressources so that every human being on earth could live the live of a standard western middle class person.
2. not enough jobs for every human being, as technology advances and makes more and more jobs obsolete (yeah, China still goes the other way around, to keep their people working and not thinking about their government).
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#37 Post by Mandarb » 07 Apr 2010 17:56

Webmaster wrote:And you don't think that if the government ran your health care that they would deny service if it didn't make financial sense for them? This already happens in Canada and the U.K. where certain drugs and/or treatments are denied because they are on the government black list.
Now guess why that happens? Because the rich are always lobbying to get tax cuts through, which in turn, of course, needs a limitation on the spending side, to get it back into ballance. It's not the government depriving the people from treatments, but the private sector wanting more for themselves, and thus "forcing" the government to deny expensive treatments.

Do you happen to know what kind of treatment is on the black list, and if there's a cheaper substitute for it?
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#38 Post by Led Guardian » 07 Apr 2010 17:57

Webmaster wrote:Sometimes there are no cheaper meds. I don't want the government having boards of people deciding which meds I can get based on my age or so. These are the so called (and rightly so) "Death Panels".

And one question t.a.j., are you in the U.S.A.?
Just an interesting fact I'd like to point out: There are no "death panels" in the bill, or anything resembling them. Part of the bill is intended to limit private insurance companies in their ability to deny coverage to those with pre-existing conditions. Doesn't that sound kind of like your "death panel" to you? Or is it okay when a private company seeking profit in good ol' capitalistic fashion mandates who gets care? At any rate, government "death panels" or anything resembling them are a total fabrication. In fact, I believe the term was coined by Sarah Palin, who's expertise in such matters is questionable anyway.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#39 Post by Led Guardian » 07 Apr 2010 17:58

t.a.j. wrote:I'd rather have a board appointed by a democratically elected government, against which I can appeal making that decision than be the subject of financial interests against which I am very much powerless.
Don't even contest that point, as it is false anyway.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#40 Post by Desert_Storm » 07 Apr 2010 18:50

Mandarb wrote: Now we have the issue that insurance fees are rising by at least 10% each year. Now they want to pass a law that people with a high franchise can change insurance companies only once every two years, instead of every year. Insurance companies get you your revised contract at about the same time, so you can chose to stay or change to another insurer if you think your fee was raised too much. Now what then can happen is easy: people who do not have that much money take the cheaper insurance, and have a higher franchise to keep the prices even lower. After a year the insurance massively raises fees, but you are not allowed to change and are now stuck with an expensive, shitty insurance. They argue too many people are changing insurances and it costs too much money migrating them. Which is rather untrue, as there's not even that many people who use that possibility.
Rather OT, but a good point ;)
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#41 Post by Mandarb » 07 Apr 2010 18:53

Which point do you mean? The one about appealing against such a decision?
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#42 Post by Metal Fan » 07 Apr 2010 19:20

About the I-paid-*blank*-for-insurance-but-they-raised-it-in-the-second-year

And now we are stuck with it.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#43 Post by Mandarb » 07 Apr 2010 21:02

That was a proposition to change the law, it was, luckily, dropped.

The insurance rates are fixed for a year. Now you're eligible to change if you don't like your new contract. If you are not allowed they can very well increase the fees after the first year, trapping the customers that need to stay two years in the new, worse contract. That they now have to stay in for another year.

It's a possibility, and they would make use of it.

Just look at your credit card companies. Obama introduced new laws that would protect the customers, forbidding the credit card companies to change the interest rates according to their gusto, without prior informing the customer of the changes. Now they need to inform the customer prior to doing so, think it's 90 days. What did the CC companies do? Raised interest to 40% immediately, until they can't do it anymore after the law kicks in.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#44 Post by Led Guardian » 08 Apr 2010 21:02

I hate corporations. Have I ever mentioned that? I mean come on. There's trying to make a profit (perfectly acceptable), and then there's trying to make a profit (at a too-high expense to consumers).
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#45 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 08 Apr 2010 22:23

neoliberalismo malo :)
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#46 Post by Mandarb » 09 Apr 2010 08:49

You know, basically I think, the main problem is rather "easy":

In the past we had all powers in the hand of the king. After the renaissance it was agreed that the Executive, Legislative and Judicative needed to be separated so that there are no conflict of interest if one person is in charge of more than one of the branches.

Now, isn't the problem we face nowadays rather, that we yet again have a lack of separation? This time is the problem that politics and economics are too much intertwined. Lobbyists having direct access to politicans, rather than the people who voted the politician into service. Individuals and corporations allowed to "donate" funds to politicians. All that creates so many dependencies between the two that the politician is faced with a conflict of interests. The company would like decision A, while the people who voted for him would profit more from decision B. Usually, the pro-company decision will be taken, as the politician "owes" the company.

And of course, very rich persons / Entrepreneurs running for office. Just look at Berlusconi in Italy. Thanks to the fact that he owns most private channels and has control over all public channels most people still cheer to him even though he skullfucks them every day.

Politicians are there to be the representative and the voice of the people, not of some corporation or whatever. Right now, it's definitely not like that.

In my opinion, this needs to change before the lunacy can become less.
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#47 Post by Desert_Storm » 09 Apr 2010 13:14

Mandarb wrote: And of course, very rich persons / Entrepreneurs running for office. Just look at Berlusconi in Italy. Thanks to the fact that he owns most private channels and has control over all public channels most people still cheer to him even though he skullfucks them every day.
Same story, different place:
Hugo Chavez
Though I feel there's not much you can do about that, even if you could ban such people from elections or force them to give up some of their media controls, you could always have, say, some relative of you running it in order to get a good publicity (hmm... that reminds me of something...), whereas one could easily create laws to prevent big companies from sponsoring certain people's/party's election campaigns for the reasons you mentioned above (hm... again that reminds me of something... :roll: )
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#48 Post by Mandarb » 09 Apr 2010 17:28

Desert_Storm wrote:
Mandarb wrote: And of course, very rich persons / Entrepreneurs running for office. Just look at Berlusconi in Italy. Thanks to the fact that he owns most private channels and has control over all public channels most people still cheer to him even though he skullfucks them every day.
Same story, different place:
Hugo Chavez
Though I feel there's not much you can do about that, even if you could ban such people from elections or force them to give up some of their media controls, you could always have, say, some relative of you running it in order to get a good publicity (hmm... that reminds me of something...), whereas one could easily create laws to prevent big companies from sponsoring certain people's/party's election campaigns for the reasons you mentioned above (hm... again that reminds me of something... :roll: )
You can't really get rid of that sponsorship thingie too easily.. I mean, forbid donations by corporations, and they will just have a private person donate the money. Forbid donations from private persons, and only people who are rich can pay their campaign.

Solution? Maybe, all persons running for office get the same amount of money from the state and are only allowed to run the campaign on this?

Ah, bloody hell, stupid can of worms! As Churchill already mentioned, Democracy is the worst form of government, but the best we have so far come up with.

P.S.: you're from Zürich? I'm currently near Basel, but grew up close to Zürich :)
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#49 Post by Desert_Storm » 09 Apr 2010 17:56

I was referring to the case in january, when the US supreme court suppressed the barrier against the election campaign financing by companies.
See http://diepresse.com/home/politik/ausse ... me_politik
and http://diepresse.com/home/politik/ausse ... =simarchiv

Why not move the private talk to http://www.blind-guardian.com/forum/vie ... 9#p1398939 ;)
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Re: America's failing liberal agenda

#50 Post by Mandarb » 10 Apr 2010 07:06

Ah, yes, that one. It's not like it has been worse enough already ;)

But that's what I mean: the more money you give a candidate the more he is obliged to obey your wishes. But, I guess those judges have been living in a little backroom at the high court, never meeting other people and thus never noticing human notions such as greed egoism. It's nice to live in the right-wing reality, where everyone can become anything if he just tries hard enough. After, all, they made it too! They don't mention that they had a wealthy family to back them up, but hey, see, they did it, so can you. It's easy.

Wasn't that connected to that case from 18something, where a judge mentioned, offhand, after the official verdict, that corporations are indeed like persons, and the court protocolist, who incidentally happened to be the boss of a railway company, included that into the protocol, thus creating the precedence that corporations are persons, so creating all that crap?
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