Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

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Andreas
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#101 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 22:11

It makes some sense... but somehow I can't explain it... maybe I'm stupid after all :|

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#102 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 22:19

I am still trying to find the logic. Does a high postcount mean someone is qualified at debating politics? Or does it disqualify him? If so: if you have a high postcount, then register a new nick with a new postcount, does this make you a better debater? Please Pity, explain this to us.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#103 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 22:20

I highly doubt if he'll ever enlighten you about this delicate matter

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#104 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 22:26

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:I am still trying to find the logic. Does a high postcount mean someone is qualified at debating politics? Or does it disqualify him? If so: if you have a high postcount, then register a new nick with a new postcount, does this make you a better debater? Please Pity, explain this to us.
You figure it out, Rohan. You're a smart person.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#105 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 22:27

It helps if you explain it. C'mon, be helpful for once :)

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#106 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 22:30

I Pity The Fool wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:I am still trying to find the logic. Does a high postcount mean someone is qualified at debating politics? Or does it disqualify him? If so: if you have a high postcount, then register a new nick with a new postcount, does this make you a better debater? Please Pity, explain this to us.
You figure it out, Rohan. You're a smart person.
Thanks for the compliment. Nice to hear a friendly gesture from someone.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

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End Of An Era
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#107 Post by End Of An Era » 15 May 2010 09:22

Yo, fool, you remind me of the company i had some email traffic about. they too refused to confirm their claims and now stopped mailing simply because i poked through their argumentation. Somehow you are too dense to quit and take your losses.
Come on, humour me, explain just one, (really, one is all i need and ask!) example of the acts and behaviour of zionists/israel which turns you on so much. :)

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#108 Post by Daijin » 19 May 2010 10:05

Joost wrote: I do not think that the Jewish religion is fascist in any way (in fact, the mere idea of a 'fascist religion' is almost contradictory already, as it contradicts the fascist tenet that there can be no source of spirituality outside the state). Zionism, however, was of course for a large part secular rather than religious, and while most Zionists definitely weren't 'fascists' in any sense, some of them most likely were (particularly the ones I already named).
Ok, but people like Ben Gurion or Golda Meir were less religious than Begin. And again, given that there have been a few Zionist with fascist ideas, what about the relevant ones? What makes Begin fascist, the one guy from the revisionist camp who actually managed to get in power? Shouldn't one judge people by their deeds?
As for the last sentence: deportation of other peoples, which is something that I would call "the total devaluation of other peoples and their connection to the place" was not merely something Irgun wanted to achieve, but something that actually was achieved during the 1948 Palestinian exodus.
I don't accept that as an argument because I challenge the factual basis for it. Of course, I don't doubt the fact that hundreds of thousands fled from the territory of the new Israeli state but I do doubt that there's been systematical deportation. The party in charge then has been the socialists around ben Gurion and they never decided on deporting the Arabs in Palestine.
I tried quite hard to be precise accurate when describing e.g. the different movements within Zionism, and the internal disagreements. Talking about "every nationalism that is connected with Islam" is less subtle. About which 'Islamic concept' are you talking? Is this concept accepted by all Muslims, ranging from mainstream Sunni Muslims to the Shi'ites in Iran to the Sufis, Alevis, and what else there is?
I never said that all Muslims adhere to this. Just like you I'm talking of "undercurrents". The idea I'm referring to is connected to the concepts of the Umma, Dar ul-Islam and Dar ul-Harb. I'm not saying that muslims in general want to reconquer former muslim territories.
This is a good point of criticism -- there is good reason to assume that the influence of Abba Ahimeir was somewhat limited. This is, of course, not the case for Menachem Begin, or the Irgun or Lechi movements (who, at the same time, also were less extreme).
See above. What makes Begin a fascist?
Also a good point. But I guess my original point, namely that there has been a fascist or close-to-fascist undercurrent in some movements that were influential to the foundation of Israel as a state, still stands.
Ok, but were's the relevance? This whole discussion started with the question of being "quite critical" of Israel as a state, didn't it? So, the existence of marginal undercurrents with ties to fascist ideas that didn't substantially influence the foundations of the State of Israel justify being quite critical of the State itself? You must be fiercely opposed to a Palestinian state then if you follow that path consequently. Given the fact that one of the founders of Palestinian nationalism was a friend of Hitler, a strong supporter of the final solution and in general an Arab Nazi. What about the current of anti-semtism in the Palestinian nationalist movement that is not that "under" at all? The one you can find in the charta of Hamas or in the utterances of Palestinian leaders?
Daijin wrote: How can Netanyahu have a connection to organisations that didn't exist anymore when he was born? Or what do you mean?
Joost wrote:His father Benzion was connected to Irgun.
In that case I myself have connections to the German NSDAP.
I wanted to point out what you asked me to point out -- that there has been a fascist undercurrent in some movements that have been quite influential in the history of Likud. And I am still not quite convinced that all traces of this undercurrent are gone by now.
Could you give an example? I mean, sure there might be some idiots in the Likud, even some really right-winged idiots. But that's also true for the German CDU.
On one side, Netanyahu endorses a 'two-state solution', but wants to have the power of the resulting Palestinian state limited (e.g. by not allowing it to import arms). One one side this is, given the situation, of course understandable, but on the other hand one might wonder whether this really is a proper 'two state' solution at all.
At least, it's a start, and it's much more than the Palestinian ever had during their entire history. Israel wants security. That's a basic neccessity of every state. History has shown time and again that the only way for Israel to guaranty security for its citizens is when Israel takes care of it by itself. I actually don't get it. The Palestinians have nothing right now. They have the chance to get a state, one without the means to go to war with Israel, but at least they can have their own state. But the reaction, as always, as in 1948, is "all or nothing".
On the other side, given quotations such as "As a Palestinian today I speak of a Palestinian and Arab demand for a state on 1967 borders. It is true that in reality there will be an entity or state called Israel on the rest of Palestinian land." (Khaled Meshaal) and "Israel is there, it is part of the United Nations and we do not deny its existence. But we still have rights and land there which have been usurped and until these matters are dealt with we will withhold our recognition" (Ismail Haniyeh), it seems unfair to simply state that Hamas 'time and again declares its intention to destroy Israel and to kill Jews everywhere in the world'.
Honestly, there's almost no difference. Saying Israel has to be destroyed or saying "we still have rights and land there" has he same consequence. Till now neither Hamas not Fatah have forsaken the "right of return". So, they accept that there's a state called Israel. Big deal, accepting reality. What Hamas never accepted is that this state is allowed to remain a Jewish one.
So, even those moderate quotes don't stand for accepting the existence of the Jewish state of Israel. And I doubt that even those "moderate" words were uttered in Arabic in front of an Arabic audience (you might prove me wrong here). There's a long history of huge differences between what Arab leaders said in this matter in English to other states' officials and what they say to their own people or their own collegues.
All in all, for both sides you can find some nicer quotes and doubtless also some less-than-nice quotes
Sure, but I doubt you'll find anything even close to the Hamas charta or to the hateful tirades spilled by Hamas leaders on public demonstrations in the words of Netanyahu and the likes.
but my main point really is, that neither Likud (on the Israeli side) nor Hamas (on the Palestinian side) is the best candidate for the peace process. The best chances for peace still have been during a period when both Israel and the Palestinians had a leftist leadership.
Well, I agree in the case of Hamas. But since the Israeli left is inclined to make peace for an even higher price than the right I'd say it's the right that has the best chances to come to a peace agreement. Because they'll always have the backing of the left on this issue. If Labour on the other hand offered too much (in the eyes of Likud voters) they'd have to struggle against a strong opposition in their own country. Netanyahu's speech at the Bar Ilan University about the two state solution was grounded on a consensus in Israel's society. If his proposal got accepted there'd be opposition against it only by the radicals.

And by the way, Netanyahu's decision to stop construction in the West Bank for ten months is more than any left government has done so far.

And a last remark: The first peace treaty with an Arab state was negotiated and achieved by the most "right-winged" government in the history of Israel.
And yes, my personal mission is that it maybe shouldn't be too bad to have an international UN mission in Israel, both to secure Israel's own security [...]
Yeah great, because history has shown that UN-forces are totally capable of securing Israel's security. Oh wait...
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#109 Post by t.a.j. » 19 May 2010 10:45

No‘am wrote:
Daijin wrote:I'm positive that I'll find some time for that tomorrow since Shabat will start in the afternoon so that I cannot work anyway.
It's forbidden to write on Shabbat too.
Ah, fuck you jews! :D
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#110 Post by Daijin » 19 May 2010 11:23

Sometimes I wonder how there can be a working economy at all here in Israel. In addition to Shabat people are celebrating hollidays all the time. Today for example... and yesterday... and for a whole week at the beginning of April...
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
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Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#111 Post by No‘am » 19 May 2010 13:17

Daijin wrote:Sometimes I wonder how there can be a working economy at all here in Israel. In addition to Shabat people are celebrating hollidays all the time. Today for example... and yesterday... and for a whole week at the beginning of April...
I think because of longer work days and more monthly hours than in Europe, for comparison. School is 6 days a week. You're staying in Israel now?
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#112 Post by Daijin » 19 May 2010 13:33

I also went to school six days a week, at least for some time.

Yes, I'm in Israel right now. I'll stay here till the end of May.
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
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Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
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