Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

In this section, you can talk relaxedly about everyday matters, and also engage in more serious discussions. Please try to keep this place accessible to everyone and write your posts in English.
Message
Author
User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#51 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 23:05

I tend not to take pictures and videos like this at face value, especially when they are too convenient for one of the parties. Material like this is always released with the intend of influencing public opinion, which means that one shouldn't draw conclusions from them at first glance. You always have to ask yourself why a party deliberately enclosed the material and, knowing that logic indicated there's also footage that isn't shown, why certain things are left out.

According to this video there was at least some degree of fighting that isn't shown on the video Joost posted (but the video itself is too suggestive to take any actual information from).

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/970641/ ... pboot.html
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#52 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 23:14

Where you referring to my videos too Ferdi? That one you posted is one of the videos I posted, the other is of the same incident but from a different and clearer angle, with soldiers talking on the communicators in the background. Did you watch them?
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#53 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 23:39

Basing on Noam's videos, it looks like the Israeli soldiers indeed were attacked disproportionally. In that light, I really wonder why Haaretz had to post such an obviously fake picture...

Then again, I still don't see why the Israeli army had the right to enter the ship to begin with.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#54 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 01 Jun 2010 07:02

No‘am wrote:Where you referring to my videos too Ferdi? That one you posted is one of the videos I posted, the other is of the same incident but from a different and clearer angle, with soldiers talking on the communicators in the background. Did you watch them?
Not until a moment ago. I found them quite shocking and they contradict the notion that these were just a number of nobel prizewinners who were peacefully sitting in a boat.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#55 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 01 Jun 2010 07:16

Joost wrote:Basing on Noam's videos, it looks like the Israeli soldiers indeed were attacked disproportionally. In that light, I really wonder why Haaretz had to post such an obviously fake picture...

Then again, I still don't see why the Israeli army had the right to enter the ship to begin with.
Apparently this was legal under the Oslo-treaty. I would have to look this up tonight.

Common sense dictates that Israel had a reason to board the boats. For all they know the boats could be carrying weapons to help the Hamas.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#56 Post by Daijin » 01 Jun 2010 14:20

Imagine a military base with signs around it: "Don't approach. You will be shot at.". And then a group of people storms head on towards the fence, getting warned again and again and again not to approach. Then soldiers come to the fence warning again not to come close to the fence. Then these soldiers get attacked, and then in the end they use deadly force - as they claim - to protect themselves. I wonder if the reaction would be the same. I suppose not, except if it was an Israeli army base.

People in Gaza get supplies of food, fuel and medicine almost every day. Organizations that really care for humanitarian goals and which are not only interested in propaganda and agitation are supervising this process as the supplies are being transferred by trucks from Israel across the border to Gaza. The people of the flotilla were offered time and again to use the same way. They were offered to deliver their goods to the port of Ashdod and from there by land to Gaza after an inspection of the IDF. All of this would have happened in presence of the organizers of the flotilla.

Instead they deliberately chose to move into an restricted, military controlled area, to ignore the warnings, to dismiss cooperation and in the end even to attack armed military personnel. The results can be seen in the videos.

But at least, people like spamel can rejoice for getting another chance to fuel their resentment.
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#57 Post by Belgarion » 01 Jun 2010 17:48

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Common sense dictates that Israel had a reason to board the boats. For all they know the boats could be carrying weapons to help the Hamas.
I think those ships would be the last ones on earth to carry weapons for Hamas. There must have been controls. If you consider metal poles, chairs, clubs and knives as weapons to help Hamas fight against Israel, then maybe.
Daijin wrote:People in Gaza get supplies of food, fuel and medicine almost every day.
Not enough as it should, as several agencies have been complaining now and then.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 99708.html
http://www.dec.org.uk/item/311
http://www.oxfam.org/pressroom/pressrel ... agreements
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7845428.stm
Instead they deliberately chose to move into an restricted, military controlled area, to ignore the warnings, to dismiss cooperation and in the end even to attack armed military personnel. The results can be seen in the videos.
The purpose was to breach the Gaza barricade, not transfer the aid through usual land channels, of course. It was a political activity, that's why passengers on board are called activists. They were trying to do something for Gaza strip the whole world turned a blind eye to. I don't think they expected such a harsh military interception from IDF.

And sorry, but I can't interpret the video. Yes, people are attacking IDF soldiers but we don't see why. Who started it? When is that happening? In the beginning of the interception or in the end? Are they defending themselves or blindly attacking the soldiers? And I don't see any guns being fired from the activists side.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#58 Post by Andreas » 01 Jun 2010 18:13

So what if they didn't use any guns? They had knives, maybe they used those things. If the activists used knives against those soldiers, I don't mind the soldiers shooting the crap out of those guys.

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#59 Post by Belgarion » 01 Jun 2010 18:31

In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#60 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 01 Jun 2010 18:38

I think those ships would be the last ones on earth to carry weapons for Hamas. There must have been controls. If you consider metal poles, chairs, clubs and knives as weapons to help Hamas fight against Israel, then maybe.
I don't agree, and I think Israel was justified to search said boats for the purpose of making sure these boats weren't a coverup. After all: if these people had nothing to hide, why not carry the goods through land under Israeli supervision? The fact that they did not take up on Israel's offer, could make a country justifiably suspect. Having a couple marines checking these boats to make sure there are no weapons on board used to arm Hamas, is justified in an attempt to protect the citizens of Israel from a terrorist organisation bent on destroying the state of Israel.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#61 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 01 Jun 2010 19:07

This just in. There's ANOTHER BOAT en route to Gaza.

I say, nuke them.

http://www.todayonline.com/BreakingNews ... s-response
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#62 Post by Andreas » 01 Jun 2010 19:13

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:I say, nuke them.
Best idea of the month already.

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#63 Post by spamel » 01 Jun 2010 19:18

OOoooooooooh! Looks like I'm not flavour of the month! :lol: I don't know why you all think I am bullying you all, the fact still remains that they stormed the ship out in international waters. They contravened International Law, why is there anything to dispute? I have cut and paste this for your digestion:

******************************************************************************

Contiguous zone

The contiguous zone is a band of water extending from the outer edge of the territorial sea to up to 24 nautical miles (44 km) from the baseline, within which a state can exert limited control for the purpose of preventing or punishing "infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea". This will typically be 12 nautical miles (22 km) wide, but could be more (if a state has chosen to claim a territorial sea of less than 12 nautical miles), or less, if it would otherwise overlap another state's contiguous zone. However, unlike the territorial sea there is no standard rule for resolving such conflicts, and the states in question must negotiate their own compromise. The United States invoked a contiguous zone on 24 September 1999.[2]
[edit]Exclusive economic zone

An exclusive economic zone extends from the outer limit of the territorial sea to a maximum of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km) from the territorial sea baseline, thus it includes the contiguous zone.[3] A coastal nation has control of all economic resources within its exclusive economic zone, including fishing, mining, oil exploration, and any pollution of those resources. However, it cannot prohibit passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea that is in compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of the UN Convention, within that portion of its exclusive economic zone beyond its territorial sea. Before 1982, coastal nations arbitrarily extended their territorial waters in an effort to control activities which are now regulated by the exclusive economic zone, such as offshore oil exploration or fishing rights (see Cod Wars). Indeed, the exclusive economic zone is still popularly, though erroneously, called a coastal nation's territorial waters.

******************************************************************************


So, I think you'll agree, Israel were outside of their jurisdiction and had no legal authority. They illegally boarded a ship, an act of piracy. Read up on it, I'll cut and paste a few choice parts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy

Piracy is an act of robbery and/or criminal violence by private parties at sea.

Maritime piracy, according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, consists of any criminal acts of violence, detention, rape, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or aircraft that is directed on the high seas against another ship, aircraft, or against persons or property on board a ship or aircraft. Piracy can also be committed against a ship, aircraft, persons, or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any state

Sorry if I come across as a bully, I just think Israel gets away with more than any other country ever would. Also, as an ex-soldier I dislike to see anybody being treated in the way, say, Kosovans were. And I'm not saying Israel are acting EXACTLY like the perpetrators during the Kosovo War, but they aren't saints!
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#64 Post by spamel » 01 Jun 2010 20:00

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
Joost wrote:Basing on Noam's videos, it looks like the Israeli soldiers indeed were attacked disproportionally. In that light, I really wonder why Haaretz had to post such an obviously fake picture...

Then again, I still don't see why the Israeli army had the right to enter the ship to begin with.
Apparently this was legal under the Oslo-treaty. I would have to look this up tonight.

Common sense dictates that Israel had a reason to board the boats. For all they know the boats could be carrying weapons to help the Hamas.
I'd be interested in what you find vis a vis the Oslo Treaty. I think the fact that most of the world leaders are condemning the action and consider their actions to be against international laws is strong indicator that they have broken international law. Considering an Israeli minister even admitted on the BBC news that they had no evidence whatsoever of any contraband or weaponry being on board, then what are their reasons for acting the way they did? I'm pretty sure opinions would be different if it had been the parents of some of the people calling me a bully (wtf?!) who had been killed on board whilst in international waters and with no just reason behind the action.
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#65 Post by Belgarion » 01 Jun 2010 20:05

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:I say, nuke them.
I think this time they should play some Manowar or Rhapsody from the helicopters to the passengers. They would return immediately.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
Gandalf de Grijze
Posts: 13919
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 18:01
Location: Dutchielandia
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#66 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 01 Jun 2010 21:09

Let's not, if they play that stuff the people on teh boats will either hang themselves or try with whatever means they can think of to destroy the source of the sound.
Hansi 24-09-2010 wrote:It's always good to be back in the United States Of The Netherlands
Check out my photography at Steemphoto.com

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#67 Post by No‘am » 01 Jun 2010 21:28

I say some new Metallica music - they would instantly fall asleep.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#68 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 01 Jun 2010 21:33

spamel wrote:Piracy is an act of robbery and/or criminal violence by private parties at sea.
You contradict yourself by your own explanation by attributing piracy to private parties. Neither party can be considered private. It was an invasion of Israeli military who stepped on a ship sailing under a Turkish flag which itself carried a military/diplomatic commission. At the most this is an act of (il)legal warfare but most likely it's an act which legality can by judged by the country who'se flag the ship was sailing under.

This last part is particularly interesting. Israel may be at war, but knowing there hasn't been a declaration of war between Israel and Turkey, these acts cannot be judged in international law, but have to be judged by Turkish law. Belgarion, what exactly does Turkish law say about military men killing in self-defence?
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#69 Post by No‘am » 01 Jun 2010 22:59

Legal or not, piracy or whatever, that's what usually happens when you attack and try to kill soldiers. Don't be surprised and don't expect anything else. The thick Turkish seamen got what's coming.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
somnia
Posts: 237
Joined: 04 Jul 2009 20:16

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#70 Post by somnia » 01 Jun 2010 23:40

power progressive metal: polimat
game music and soundtrack: dogac yavuz

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#71 Post by Belgarion » 02 Jun 2010 00:42

Kitchen knives, repair tools and blank DVD's?

Yeah, it's good news that Hamas didn't get their hands on these.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#72 Post by Belgarion » 02 Jun 2010 00:44

On the other hand, you can use DVDs as Shuriken if you throw them fast enough.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#73 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 Jun 2010 06:52

No‘am wrote:thick Turkish seamen
lol
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#74 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 08:48

Belgarion wrote:Kitchen knives, repair tools and blank DVD's?

Yeah, it's good news that Hamas didn't get their hands on these.
That was a stupid picture to publish, people here are ridiculing it too, but it was never mentioned that the weapons they had were intended for Hamas. It's the fact that some of them were used to attack the soldiers. Do you still insist on thinking that they were peace activists that wanted to bring humanitarian supplies after what they did to the soldiers and after they refused to transfer the supplies to Gaza?
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
somnia
Posts: 237
Joined: 04 Jul 2009 20:16

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#75 Post by somnia » 02 Jun 2010 09:02

No‘am wrote:Do you still insist on thinking that they were peace activists that wanted to bring humanitarian supplies after what they did to the soldiers and after they refused to transfer the supplies to Gaza?
I don't see anyone claiming their intention was just to bring some humanitarian aid. They tried to break the blockade by creating a controversy that would turn the heads globally, and Israel reacted too harsh, resulting in deaths and injuries.
power progressive metal: polimat
game music and soundtrack: dogac yavuz

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#76 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 09:30

somnia wrote:
No‘am wrote:Do you still insist on thinking that they were peace activists that wanted to bring humanitarian supplies after what they did to the soldiers and after they refused to transfer the supplies to Gaza?
I don't see anyone claiming their intention was just to bring some humanitarian aid. They tried to break the blockade by creating a controversy that would turn the heads globally, and Israel reacted too harsh, resulting in deaths and injuries.
That's what they and others were claiming. Some also tried to kill soldiers, that's why there were deaths and injuries. No other reason.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#77 Post by Belgarion » 02 Jun 2010 09:39

No‘am wrote:Do you still insist on thinking that they were peace activists that wanted to bring humanitarian supplies after what they did to the soldiers and after they refused to transfer the supplies to Gaza?
As I said before:
Belgarion wrote:The purpose was to breach the Gaza barricade, not transfer the aid through usual land channels, of course. It was a political activity, that's why passengers on board are called activists. They were trying to do something for Gaza strip the whole world turned a blind eye to. I don't think they expected such a harsh military interception from IDF.
And no, I don't find it cool that they attacked the soldiers. But we still don't know what caused them to do that, it might be that IDF motivated the situation by being too much offensive etc. Show me the beginning of the interception and who attacks who first, then I can agree with you that the activists deserved what they got, because the soldiers couldn't have done anything else but kill, not some randomly cut videos.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#78 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 10:02

I was referring to this, that you wrote earlier (maybe it wasn't needed, unless someone else here still thinks so):
Belgarion wrote:Hostile vessel? Lying about the humanitarian aid? Stabbed and shot? Yeah, they are 600 evil armed terrorists on the ships from all over the world bringing food and medicine to evil Gazza people.
And I still think that they were not all activists since activists shouldn't attack soldiers like that under any circumstances, even if the soldiers were overly aggressive.
And some of the people on the ships that got back home by now keep claiming that nobody attacked the soldiers, they just started shooting people in the head the moment they got on board, and that none of the ships had any weapons.
The videos released by the IDF of the soldiers dropping off the helicopters and getting beaten show that no other soldiers were on board at the beginning of filming. That seems like the beginning of the interception of that boat to me. You also have the other boats to consider, where nothing happened, and I don't think it's likely that one team of soldiers decided to be overly aggressive and shoot innocents as opposed to the other teams who opted to keep the takeover peaceful.
The investigation held here claims that about 100 jihadists were on board, together with the other activists, and they were the ones that planned and carried out the attack against the soldiers, one of them is the guy in the picture Joost posted (and you can see the sword that he's holding among the kitchen knives in the pictures labelled as weapons). I find it really hard to believe that none of the other people on the flotilla knew nothing about this
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
Edain
Posts: 601
Joined: 12 Apr 2004 15:34
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#79 Post by Edain » 02 Jun 2010 11:33

That's one really valid point many people forget about: Special forces basically never shoot first when entering a building/boarding a ship - and even more not when boarding a ship packed with supposedly peaceful activists - they usually manage to disarm kidnappers, terrorists etc without firing a single bullet: you really need to be very paranoid to believe those guys landed on the ship and placed some headshots first to make clear who's the boss on board.

The fact that the soldiers were fiercely attacked (and yes, you can even kill an "elite" soldier when stabbing him, trying to get his gun, throwing him down 30 ft, especially when he tries not to fire because you're a "peace activist") shows that there were many people on board who weren't just "peace activists" or something like this - if you're one, you definitely won't try to stab a soldier who won't hurt you when he boards your ship, I guess?! And this shows somehow that Israel had well a reason to be suspicious about this convoy - it's also hard to believe that none of the passengers or the organizers knew that there were some good dozens of extremists on board.

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve this action - Israel was provoked and it fell into the trap. They should have foreseen more resistance on board of the ships, that this is a really difficult mission - we see the consequences now, the peace process is now even more shattered. But these "oh, the bad Israelis slaughtered a dozen of peaceful activists"-comments are really annoying.
"Edis Rehto Eht Morf Snoitanigami!"

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#80 Post by Daijin » 02 Jun 2010 11:48

Normally, when anything bad happens in the world, like when the World Trade Center collapses, the usual suspects appear with ever the same question: cui bono? Who profits from the events? (a question that lays the foundation of almost every conspiracy theory).
And then the answer is: USA (or Israel/Mossad/Jews you name it).

Now the very same people are totally convinced that Israel deliberately killed those peace loving activists on the flotilla, and for some strange reason this time there seems to be no need to ask the obligatory question of cui bono. Because to find any gain for Israel in this mess would be an awfully difficult enterprise.

So, I wonder why? Why did this happen? Why did they do this? For political reasons? Well, if Israel's intention was to totally isolate itself in the international community (even more than it already is) and lose its only ally in the region - then yes.
Because the soldiers lost their heads and started killing indiscriminately? Quite improbable, considering that this happened only on one of the ships and that all the ships were boarded by the same elite unit that is trained for situations like that.

This leaves to possible explanations:
1. The military did this deliberately because they were eager to kill some assholes.

Or one might consider, which is almost absurd, I admit, since we're dealing with Israel here, the most evil country in the world, that the account of the events given by the Israely military could actually be true. But God forbid! That's close to impossible. Better believe that those savage Jews just love to kill. Much more convincing.
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

User avatar
somnia
Posts: 237
Joined: 04 Jul 2009 20:16

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#81 Post by somnia » 02 Jun 2010 15:56

No‘am wrote:And I still think that they were not all activists since activists shouldn't attack soldiers like that under any circumstances, even if the soldiers were overly aggressive.
You wouldn't know that.
No‘am wrote:You also have the other boats to consider, where nothing happened, and I don't think it's likely that one team of soldiers decided to be overly aggressive and shoot innocents as opposed to the other teams who opted to keep the takeover peaceful.
Afaik, five were just cargo ships. Most of the people were on the Mavi Marmara, where the events happened.
Daijin wrote:Or one might consider, which is almost absurd, I admit, since we're dealing with Israel here, the most evil country in the world, that the account of the events given by the Israely military could actually be true. But God forbid! That's close to impossible. Better believe that those savage Jews just love to kill. Much more convincing.
One point you keep overlooking is, the existence of the IDF is unjustifiable since they were in international waters.

On a sidenote; even though I keep rooting for the flotilla, I don't think Israel is the only one that's guilty about this issue. IHH (the NGO that organised this trip) has as much blood on their hands as the IDF, even more. I'm actually surprised that no relative of the deceased has filed a lawsuit yet.
power progressive metal: polimat
game music and soundtrack: dogac yavuz

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#82 Post by spamel » 02 Jun 2010 18:02

To clarify something here, I have been through Entebbe airport and seen the still obvious aftermath of the Israeli Entebbe raid, and I have read loads about it and think it was an excellent piece of military action and believe they did the right thing in that instance. For those who don't know, a plane was hijacked and diverted loaded with mainly Israeli citizens way back in the 70s. The Israelis launched an audacious and very bold rescue attempt, with the loss of just one life. They landed at Entebbe, Uganda and rescued all hostages bar one who was accidentally shot and killed and then blew up a number of Mig fighters that are still there, in order to safeguard their escape. They rescued their citizens, they used proportional force and I think it was the correct course of action to take. I think it is one of the greatest military actions ever, the amount of countries they had to fly over who were against them to reach their destination, then make the assault and return back over those countries' air space was bold and exceptional. It is an excellent example of the Israelis getting it right.

On the other hand, this was the complete opposite. If they had waited until the ship was within their 24 mile zone, then they would have been vindicated in their actions by way of stating national security. The ship they boarded was 80 miles out (if reports are correct, it was 40 before) so well outside of their jurisdiction. I suppose it is too late now though, the deal has been done and people are injured and dead. Israel should be put under pressure now though, to ensure this doesn't happen again and to allow civilians to be treated humanely.
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#83 Post by Daijin » 02 Jun 2010 18:16

As a nice coincidence: I'm wearing this T-Shirt right now. ;)

Entebbe went almost perfect. This time it turned out to be a mess. Sometimes that happens in risky military operations, especially when you make mistakes during the planning (as military intelligence obviously did when they considered the possible reaction of the peace loving peace activists on board).
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#84 Post by spamel » 02 Jun 2010 18:28

Their justification at Entebbe was that their citizens had been held against their will and were being kept hostage. Their lives were in immediate danger and they were justified in their actions.

Unless the flotilla had missiles on board that could be launched from 80 miles away, then they posed no immediate threat. The IDF were not justified in carrying out this action.
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#85 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 Jun 2010 19:41

I suppose it is too late now though, the deal has been done and people are injured and dead. Israel should be put under pressure now though, to ensure this doesn't happen again and to allow civilians to be treated humanely.
Why put Israel under pressure to make sure it doesn't happen again? That seems like taking the path of the most resistance. The blockade is still there and whether some hippies on boats like it or not, it will remain there in order to protect the citizens of the state of Israel - to which I would like to add that protecting its citizens is one of the biggest obligations any state has.

Seems to me that the easiest solution is for no ships to sail through that particular bit of sea, at least not until the conflict in the middle-east has been solved. I fail to see the necessity of using that particular bit of ocean anyways, aside from trying to make Israel as angry as possible. That's despicable in itself, because every step towards another conflict is a step away from a peaceful solution.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#86 Post by spamel » 02 Jun 2010 21:18

I mean that they don't go out 80 miles into international waters and kick off again, I thought that would be quite clear. I did say that if it had happened within their Contiguous Zone then they would have been vindicated in their actions, but it is clear that the ships posed no immediate threat when they were 80 miles away from Israel. Also, all ships have the right to sail unimpeded on international waters as per the 'United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea' which states:

"the high seas are open to all states, whether coastal or land-locked."

The high seas is another term for international waters, so they had every right to be there and therefore every right to not be boarded illegally.
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#87 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 21:25

somnia wrote:
No‘am wrote:And I still think that they were not all activists since activists shouldn't attack soldiers like that under any circumstances, even if the soldiers were overly aggressive.
You wouldn't know that.
Actually, I do, we all do. Activists don't attack soldiers like that, and you can see them doing exactly that in the video.
somnia wrote:
No‘am wrote:You also have the other boats to consider, where nothing happened, and I don't think it's likely that one team of soldiers decided to be overly aggressive and shoot innocents as opposed to the other teams who opted to keep the takeover peaceful.
Afaik, five were just cargo ships. Most of the people were on the Mavi Marmara, where the events happened.
Ok. It's more or less what I said.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#88 Post by spamel » 02 Jun 2010 21:34

Who knows what scared people will do, especially when a helicopter starts dropping plainly armed soldiers onto the deck of your ship. I feel that your comments are based purely on supposition and misinformation. Can you explain their right to board a ship in international waters, which is an illegal act?
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#89 Post by spamel » 02 Jun 2010 21:47

Also, it would appear that the gun fire came from pistols snatched from the Israeli troops that had boarded, which goes against the Israeli statement that they were being shot at as they boarded. How could they have been shot at, as there weren't any firearms on board until the IDF boarded. I've also seen reports on the BBC from separate people who told the same story about the IDFs' actions, but one of them wasn't aware of the true number of those dead. This suggests they have not gotten together to get their story straight, otherwise the guy who thought only a few people were dead would have been put straight before being interviewed by the BBC. I smell a rat!
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#90 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 22:14

spamel wrote:Who knows what scared people will do, especially when a helicopter starts dropping plainly armed soldiers onto the deck of your ship.
First of all, they first tried to board the ship from the sea but the people on board already then attacked them and threw stun grenades and other things (as videos show, plus reports also include Molotov cocktails and live fire). Plus they were preparing to attack the soldiers long before the IDF approached the boats, so they weren't scared, they were waiting and longing for conflict. And in any case, any citizen suddenly facing an armed soldier would not attack, not even out of panic.
spamel wrote:I feel that your comments are based purely on supposition and misinformation. Can you explain their right to board a ship in international waters, which is an illegal act?
What makes you feel that? My comments are based on reports by the soldiers and evidence from the videos.
About the waters issue, I can't really explain it, other than that I tried to read on the subject, and from what I gathered those waters certainly aren't international waters/High seas, they're not territorial waters nor the contiguous zone either, but rather the exclusive economic zone, if you want to go into detail. I have no idea what the laws are about this area, and I don't have a truly solid opinion on whether it was justified or not, but I guess the fact that the ships announced their intention to enter territorial waters and break the naval blockade, together with the route they had, were enough.
somnia wrote: One point you keep overlooking is, the existence of the IDF is unjustifiable since they were in international waters.
I don't think that that's the main issue that caused the outcry against Israel, rather, it's the false idea that IDF soldiers murdered innocent peace activists that so many keep clinging to. Plus, read above.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#91 Post by Belgarion » 02 Jun 2010 22:27

No‘am wrote:
spamel wrote:Who knows what scared people will do, especially when a helicopter starts dropping plainly armed soldiers onto the deck of your ship.
First of all, they first tried to board the ship from the sea but the people on board already then attacked them and threw stun grenades and other things (as videos show, plus reports also include Molotov cocktails and live fire). Plus they were preparing to attack the soldiers long before the IDF approached the boats, so they weren't scared, they were waiting and longing for conflict. And in any case, any citizen suddenly facing an armed soldier would not attack, not even out of panic.
Really, is that what happened? Because only you seem to know what really happened. We all watched those videos and there is no clue pointing to things you claim that happened. Stun grenades? The only one thrown I saw is during the main clash which probably belonged to one of the robbed commandos. Molotov coctails? No sign of that, again just speculation.

IDF also claimed in the beginning that they have been fired at before they dropped off the helicopters, but later they converted this to "2 pistols got robbed off from our commandos".
Last edited by Belgarion on 02 Jun 2010 22:33, edited 1 time in total.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#92 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 22:33

spamel wrote:Also, it would appear that the gun fire came from pistols snatched from the Israeli troops that had boarded, which goes against the Israeli statement that they were being shot at as they boarded. How could they have been shot at, as there weren't any firearms on board until the IDF boarded.
I hope to know the truth about this too, but this still doesn't make the acts of those on board more justified or innocent. Snatching a weapon from a soldier is a serious thing in itself, and it doesn't make a weapon any less life-threatening if it was snatched from a soldier. And even if there would've been no gunfire against the soldiers, those activists on board still tried to kill them with other means and the soldiers reacted as they should.
I think the next big step is getting autopsies done on the bodies to maybe set some things right.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#93 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 22:44

Belgarion wrote:Really, is that what happened? Because only you seem to know what really happened. We all watched those videos and there is no clue pointing to things you claim that happened. Stun grenades? The only one thrown I saw is during the main clash which probably belonged to one of the robbed commandos. Molotov coctails? No sign of that, again just speculation.
I don't know what really happened, I only know what was shown in the videos. Here's a video showing a stun grenade thrown at the soldiers as they were trying to board from the sea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24
And you can see a Molotov cocktail (labelled as a fire bomb) in the video I posted earlier with the top view of the ship and the soldiers coming down from the helicopters.
Belgarion wrote:IDF also claimed in the beginning that they have been fired at before they dropped off the helicopters, but later they converted this to "2 pistols got robbed off from our commandos".
I don't think I said that the soldiers were fired on before boarding the ship as a fact or from weapons that were already on board, I tried to make it clear that it was all from reports by the soldiers.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#94 Post by Belgarion » 02 Jun 2010 22:55

The next big step is to accept that:

1)IDF illegally raided a ship in international waters. The ship didn't carry Somalian pirates, but a humanitarian group of 600 people from 37 nations.
2)The angry mob got scared/panicked/raged/etc. and unfortunately did something they shouldn't have: attacking the Israeli soldiers. It's obviously wrong, but could have been prevented easily.
3)IDF overreacted and unfortunately did something they should have done otherwise using a better interception strategy: killing 10 and wounding 50.

The next step Israel should have taken would be:

1)Accepting their illegal interception.
2)Accepting their failure to handle this tough situation and causing many deads.
3)Not imprisoning the remaining activists.

Israel wouldn't get a condemnation from the UN if they did that, instead of accusing the activists of being terrorists.

On the other hand, who cares for the sissy UN? It's a joke anyway.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#95 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 23:11

The Israeli government announced that it will release all activists (some where already released, I think all of the europeans) other than a selected few that are suspected of taking a direct part of the attack on the soldiers. It's being dealt with now in the High Court since some citizens filed an appeal against it.
I don't fully agree on your points there, since I still don't know the legality of the whole operation. I also don't think that if any other strategy would have been used or if it would've happened in Israeli waters, the mob wouldn't have tried to do the same things. And as it seems now, I also think that it was the wrong interception strategy, but killing/injuring people wasn't part of it, BUT, from the moment the soldiers got on board, I don't think they could have reacted any better.
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#96 Post by No‘am » 02 Jun 2010 23:12

And as for the UN:
Image
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#97 Post by Daijin » 03 Jun 2010 01:28

I don't even agree on any of your points.
Belgarion wrote: 1)[...] The ship didn't carry Somalian pirates, but a humanitarian group of 600 people from 37 nations.
Having seen the footage I contest the justification of the term "huminatarian group" and suggest replacing it, at least for those people attacking the soldiers, with, say, fundamentalist terror sympathizers.
2)The angry mob got scared/panicked/raged/etc. and unfortunately did something they shouldn't have: attacking the Israeli soldiers. It's obviously wrong, but could have been prevented easily.
Yeah, let's defend the angry mob. Angry mobs aren't always that bad. In fact, there are sometimes quite nice angry mobs. What the fuck? They were awaiting the soldiers with clubs, knives, chains etc. and attacked them on first sight. If they got scared afterwards when the soldiers decided to fight back instead of letting themselves getting slaughtered, then that's their problem.
And yes, it could have been prevented easily: by deciding not to start violence in the first place.
3)IDF overreacted and unfortunately did something they should have done otherwise using a better interception strategy: killing 10 and wounding 50.
Where's the overreaction? In defending themselves with deadly force? There was a complete commando squad with deadly weapons on board that ship. If they really had overreacted we'd talk about totally different numbers of casualties here. Today a single homicidal maniac killed 13 people in northern England in drive-by shootings. Don't you think overreacting elite soldiers would inflict a little more damage?

On the other hand, who cares for the sissy UN? It's a joke anyway.
The single one point on which I agree.
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#98 Post by Joost » 03 Jun 2010 08:24

No‘am wrote:I don't fully agree on your points there, since I still don't know the legality of the whole operation.
I read in a Dutch paper today, that the legality of the whole entering operation (according to International Law), would ultimately depend on the legality of the Gaza blockade. If the Gaza blockade is legal, then so is the entering operation by the IDF, and if not, then not.

But if nobody cares about the UN, why should we still care about International Law? What's the use of a law without an enforcer?
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#99 Post by Daijin » 03 Jun 2010 10:06

Shocking footage of panic stricken peace activists desperately trying to defend themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

spamel
Posts: 586
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 16:05
Location: Sheffield

Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#100 Post by spamel » 03 Jun 2010 10:19

Daijin wrote:Yeah, let's defend the angry mob. Angry mobs aren't always that bad. In fact, there are sometimes quite nice angry mobs. What the fuck? They were awaiting the soldiers with clubs, knives, chains etc. and attacked them on first sight. If they got scared afterwards when the soldiers decided to fight back instead of letting themselves getting slaughtered, then that's their problem.
And yes, it could have been prevented easily: by deciding not to start violence in the first place.
My issue with this point you make is quite simple, if the IDF hadn't boarded the ship in the first place, none of this would have happened! There must be a reason most of the world is condemning the actions of Israel, I don't buy into the fact that there is a world wide conspiracy to make the Israelis feel bad! They've screwed up, so stand up and take it on the chin and get over it. When people lie, the truth eventually comes out and it could easily damage their reputation even more. I do not trust reports from Israeli sources as I saw one of their politicians on the BBC and he was like a rabbit in a cars headlights! You could see him trying to weasel out of questions and he admitted they had no justifiable reason to board the ships. How can anybody defend that?
My mother in law is a Balrog, and I'm telling you, she has wings!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests