Osama Bin Laden Dead

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Baby_Kürsch
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Osama Bin Laden Dead

#1 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 02 May 2011 14:18

wade-newb wrote:It was just me, Blind Guardian, and a whole lotta awkward D:

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#2 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 May 2011 14:30

Yeah, it's disgusting. According to international law the US should have arrested him, but appearantly the law doesn't apply to the US of A.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#3 Post by Lord Borbak » 02 May 2011 16:43

Good riddance. Now wrap up his body in pig skin and throw it in the water.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#4 Post by t.a.j. » 02 May 2011 18:23

He will be missed.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#5 Post by Orodaran » 02 May 2011 19:49

Rot in peace.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#6 Post by Sentinel » 02 May 2011 20:07

Yep, news of the day. Osama dead, terrorism still alive and kicking. We bash them, they bash us...hurray! :roll:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#7 Post by End Of An Era » 02 May 2011 21:38

*shrugs*

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#8 Post by Andreas » 02 May 2011 22:01

+1
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Yeah, it's disgusting. According to international law the US should have arrested him, but appearantly the law doesn't apply to the US of A.
I didn't read much about it, but apparently they wanted to arrest him, but it became a firefight... so they say.

EDIT: just read that they killed him on purpose.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#9 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 May 2011 22:26

Yeah, I read the same thing. So much for liberty and justice for all.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#10 Post by spamel » 02 May 2011 23:50

OBL ain't dead, trust me. And why so? Because I am not Spartacus!
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#11 Post by Andreas » 03 May 2011 00:55

spamel wrote:I am not Spartacus!
What the...

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#12 Post by t.a.j. » 03 May 2011 08:21

Osama Bin Laden is a Goldstein.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#13 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 03 May 2011 11:41

fuck him then.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#14 Post by Frozen within » 03 May 2011 12:14

I kinda cheered when I first heard about it on the radio, I´m honestly glad that he got killed. It brings a little peace of mind to so many people. Yeah, I´m happy they sent that fucknut to his 70 virgins. I just hope that they´re all `eager-to-buttrape black dudes´ with 12 inch dicks 8)
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#15 Post by No‘am » 03 May 2011 15:45

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Yeah, it's disgusting. According to international law the US should have arrested him, but appearantly the law doesn't apply to the US of A.
Just more or less like what they're trying to do now in Libya, I guess.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#16 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 May 2011 16:13

I don't quite agree. There's quite a difference as Lybia is at war with its populace, and Western intervention is part of a legal UN-mission following Lybia's refusal to cease fire. In such a context military and political casualties are acceptable. People die in wars, it's as simple (and legal) as that. That's a huge difference with killing an unarmed civilian in cold blood in Pakistan, a country where's no war going on.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#17 Post by t.a.j. » 03 May 2011 16:26

I read a comment today, comparing the summary execution sans trial or proper procedure of Mr. bin Laden to the great care taken after WW2 to follow the path of law and right, by organizing the Nürnberg Trials. It closed with the notion that the triumphant way Obama presented the unlawful execution of an enemy makes it clear how long ago and far away those times are. No longer is an attempt made at being better than the evil which one faces, no more effort is put into adhering to the very laws and principles of justice and right that one proclaims to defend. Murder and torture and unlawful detainment and denial of a proper trial and defence are again acceptable ways to treat one's enemies.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#18 Post by Belgarion » 03 May 2011 16:47

The world got rid of another scumbag. I'm glad he's dead.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#19 Post by Orodaran » 03 May 2011 19:46

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:That's a huge difference with killing an unarmed civilian in cold blood in Pakistan
Yeah, the poor guy :roll:

I mean, I understand and appreciate the defense of moral values that should be held true by those who profess to defend them rather than wanting to dance on his grave and piss on it after the dance, but it was Bin Laden, it's not that now the USA will go hunting down every single person who is "maybe" suspected of having done a minor offense against an american citizen.

It's not completely good what they've done, but given the circumstances, it was understandable. He would have been sentenced to death anyway if he would have been tried in USA...
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#20 Post by Frozen within » 03 May 2011 20:39

I've always believed in an eye for an eye. I believe in second chances, compassion and tolerance too. But for me it's crystal clear that there's only one way of dealing with people who are not interested in dialogue, but only actively destroy and terrorize everything and everyone that stands symbol for our so called godless western society. Fuck all those ultra orthodox fucknuts who believe they have the right to kill people who don't believe in what they believe. I say fuck 'em all.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#21 Post by t.a.j. » 03 May 2011 21:33

It's cheap as shit to be against murder except when the victim was a horrible person, to be against torture except when torturing a horrible person can save a life or twenty,... It's cheap, because it means that whatever the reason you "are against murder", it's not out of principle or because you hold high human rights. If you find tolerance, not to mention enjoyment, in your heart at the idea of assassinating evildoers, detaining terrorist or torturing traitors, you do not stand behind the principles of justice, equality and right. You do not insist that the general human rights have to be extended to everyone, merely because he is human, but you believe in special privilege for special people. It's cheap, because almost everyone just lives according to the local norms and acts decently within the small circle of his face-to-face contacts. This is easy, you always get reinforced and supported by it. To transcend this tiny sphere, to go out and say that these high principles represent a moral truth that is worthy of being defended and distributed, to believe that each human being, where ever they may live, is better off if they can execute these rights, than not. That is hard. It means accepting that rapists, child molesters, serial killers and even war criminals and mass murderers like George W. Bush need to be treated according to the very same rules of procedure that apply to you, you're parents, friends, kids, lovers,...
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#22 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 May 2011 21:48

True indeed. Osama's assassination was a mission of vengeance, not of justice. Definitely not the Jedi way.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#23 Post by Frozen within » 03 May 2011 22:15

Don't care dudes, like wha'evah. It's like I said, you kill a bunch of innocent people for no reason that makes any sense at all, then I believe you forfeit your own life. And deserve to go straight to hell. There's no use in spending a fuckload of money on a trial that isn't even taken seriously, there's even a high risk in getting a guy like him in court, because you bet your sweet ass that lots of radical muslims would grab an opportunity like that to pay their final honour to him by shedding some more blood. People who act in unspeakable ways like he did are not capable of rational (out of their own tiny box) thinking and negotiating. They're like rabid dogs who attack at sight and should be put to rest no matter what. I'll write no more, because I think I'm pissing off a lot of people by saying what I believe in, but so be it, opinions vary, so to speak.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#24 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 03 May 2011 22:44

I do believe that he should have been brought to justice, brought before the international court and tried for his crimes against humanity.

However, I don't think this operation could have ended differently, as I don't see Osama Bin Laden as the kind of guy who would just submit defeat and come along nicely. As the newsreports stated, there was a firefight in the villa, and I'm not going to believe Osama did not have any weapon near him. Plus the fact that he had the American army wound up in a hellish war on terrorism for over 10 years, which doesn't sit right with anybody, least of all American seals who have a shot at the guy.

Having said that, I find it incredibly distasteful and disrespectful to dance and party because of the death of one man, no matter the crimes he comitted, no matter the evilness of the person. Doing that makes you no better, worse even, than those extremists who dance when they succeed in terrorizing the "evil west". Worse because we are the ones who condemn them whenever they dance over the deaths of our western people, because we pretend to be better but aren't when we finally strike back at them.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#25 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 04 May 2011 08:19

However, I don't think this operation could have ended differently, as I don't see Osama Bin Laden as the kind of guy who would just submit defeat and come along nicely. As the newsreports stated, there was a firefight in the villa, and I'm not going to believe Osama did not have any weapon near him.
I don't think the fact that resisting arrest will automatically mean the subject is liquidated. These are navy seals we''re talking about, and those are amongst the most well-trained units in the world. With modern technology it's possible to snipe someone in his legs from 2,3 km, to flashbang the guards blind or incapacitate the subject by using non-lethal ammunition.

If they wanted to they could at least have tried to take him alive. But they didn't even attempt this. Obviously not the fault of the marines themselves, but all the more the fault of Obama who gave the order to assassinate Bin Laden. The moment a politician decides to become the judge an jury himself, he heads in a direction that no politician should. That's not democracy: that's a dictatorship.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#26 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 08:41

Don't care dudes, like wha'evah. It's like I said, you kill a bunch of innocent people for no reason that makes any sense at all, then I believe you forfeit your own life.
No sense at all? Do you really believe people commit themselves to terrorism, even suicide attacks without good reason? Just some loony towelheads, 70 virgins and shit? Yeah, right. There are many people out there, who live bad lives with very little prospect of that ever getting better, and at least a large part of the reason for that is because of western, and for about 50 years, mostly USAmerican imperialism. There is well justified anger and the US is a very obvious target. You - and we, too - have taken their oil and left their people to suffer. Not to mention all the talk of "crusades" and "God bless America", people burning Quorans, and many other instances of giving the impression that you very much hate Islam and muslims.
So maybe you should employ a little empathy and try to understand how it must be to live like this, what kind of face this world must show you, to want to become a terrorist or suicide bomber. It's always best, I believe, to start from a position where you assume that what someone does is from their perspective reasonable and could be understood, if only their perspective could be understood. Might not always turn out that way, but it's worth trying.
And deserve to go straight to hell.
You do realize that he probably was certain that he would go to paradise?
There's no use in spending a fuckload of money on a trial that isn't even taken seriously, there's even a high risk in getting a guy like him in court, because you bet your sweet ass that lots of radical muslims would grab an opportunity like that to pay their final honour to him by shedding some more blood.
Unlike, say, spending hundreds of billions of dollars on two useless wars, killing a million people, devastating two countries and leaving them in a state of constant warfare for ten years. That was money well spent, now that you have your scapegoat.
People who act in unspeakable ways like he did are not capable of rational (out of their own tiny box) thinking and negotiating.
It's not about negotiating, it's about due process. That does not require you to "think outside your tiny box", you just have to stand there and present your point of view. Extending that right to your perceived worst enemy, that requires you to "think outside your tiny box".
They're like rabid dogs who attack at sight and should be put to rest no matter what. I'll write no more, because I think I'm pissing off a lot of people by saying what I believe in, but so be it, opinions vary, so to speak.
You certain represent a majority opinion. The idea is really simple: If you make exceptions, you do not hold to the notion of human rights. Be of the opinion that murder out of vengeance is justified for people you find most abhorrent, but be consistent enough to not demand human rights.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#27 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 04 May 2011 09:12

Agreed.

Now, honestly... One thing that surprises me is how very few people tend to use their common sense. When the news of Osama's death became widespread, there were items on the news where dozens of Americans were partying. Celebrating the death of a person is something I personally associate with these so-called dessert-ideologies rather than the free west.

And even more important: why was the US against Bin Laden answering to the court of justice for his deeds? Now what would have been so terrible about looking at the evidence on a factual basis? What was so terrible about giving Osama the right to tell his side to the story? Why was Bin Laden worth more to the US dead than alive?

The American people shouldn't be crying out in joy, they should question their government, be angry that they're denied the truth and/or be ashamed of their country.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#28 Post by Led Guardian » 04 May 2011 09:14

I'm fine with it. He has the honor of being one of those few people for whom I believe assassination is acceptable. And he was killed in a combat situation, fully armed by report. Might as well say that everyone in a war should get a trial to determine whether they should be killed in combat. Maybe not a great argument, but it's late, and I'm tired, and as much as I support fairness and equal rights, I'm glad they shot him. Couldn't even go down with honor. He used his own wife as a human shield. Any trial would have been pointless lip service to human rights, and would have ended with an execution anyway. It's not like he was secretive about what he did.

Also t.a.j., I have a problem with your last argument. You are presenting an either/or, and I'm not sure I agree that you can't legitimately hold to an ideal of human rights and condone the assassination of someone like bin Laden simultaneously. I'm too tired to really give it the thought it requires though.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#29 Post by Led Guardian » 04 May 2011 09:15

I already kind of disagree with some of things that I said in that post, but whatever. There it is.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#30 Post by Led Guardian » 04 May 2011 09:19

So apparently the CIA got some of the information by waterboarding captives. That I do have a problem with. I will draw a hard line with torture.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#31 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 04 May 2011 09:26

Any trial would have been pointless lip service to human rights, and would have ended with an execution anyway. It's not like he was secretive about what he did.
That's a fallacy. I agree that there's a likehood that he would've been found guilty and be executed, but the likeness of the outcome doesn't mean you can forfeit the procedure. If I applied your logic to other behavior I could say that it's okay to incarcerate a thief without trial, as he would've gone to jail anyway.

The point is that it was not the US's place to decide. The US might have been the victim of Osama's actions, but if the victim is allowed to dictate (and carry out) the punishment we are basically allowing ourselves to abandon our believes about freedom and be cast back into biblical times. We'd become the very thing we profess to oppose.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#32 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 13:14

Led Guardian wrote:I'm fine with it. He has the honor of being one of those few people for whom I believe assassination is acceptable. And he was killed in a combat situation, fully armed by report. Might as well say that everyone in a war should get a trial to determine whether they should be killed in combat. Maybe not a great argument, but it's late, and I'm tired, and as much as I support fairness and equal rights, I'm glad they shot him. Couldn't even go down with honor. He used his own wife as a human shield. Any trial would have been pointless lip service to human rights, and would have ended with an execution anyway. It's not like he was secretive about what he did.
News said today that he was unarmed. Not that it matters that much.
Also t.a.j., I have a problem with your last argument. You are presenting an either/or, and I'm not sure I agree that you can't legitimately hold to an ideal of human rights and condone the assassination of someone like bin Laden simultaneously. I'm too tired to really give it the thought it requires though.
By definition, a human right is right that is accorded to someone merely because they are a human being. If you argue, that some particular person does not have the right in question (and remember, we talking about the right to a fair trial with due process, assuming that Bin Laden is correctly being treated as criminal), than, you also say that that right is not a human right, that is a right that is to be accorded to someone merely because they are human, because you say that there is at least one person, who is both human and of which it is true that this right should not be accorded to them. To say otherwise is to be inconsistent.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#33 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 13:21

Or to make it simple: No one can lose a human right short of ceasing to be human. And I strongly advice against denying humanity to any biological human being. Cause next up are 'tards, niggers and heebs.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#34 Post by Andreas » 04 May 2011 13:36

The Rider Of Rohan wrote: That's a fallacy. I agree that there's a likehood that he would've been found guilty and be executed, but the likeness of the outcome doesn't mean you can forfeit the procedure. If I applied your logic to other behavior I could say that it's okay to incarcerate a thief without trial, as he would've gone to jail anyway.
Comparing a small time thief with a global terrorist who has killed thousands of innocent people, with the goal of making the entire world population paranoid and such.

@t.a.j.: human rights do not apply absolutely on every human. For instance, when a guy goes out in the public and randomly shoots people, you can't really say he lost his right to live, but that particular right can be "less valid", so to speak. In that case, law enforcement can shoot to kill (but agreed, taking alive is preferable).

But to both of you: I do not necessarily agree with how all this happened. We have to deal with reports made by the US government and maybe later some eyewitnesses, so I can't possibly know what really happened. That's why I won't judge the behaviour of the US.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#35 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 04 May 2011 13:49

After reading this thread all I have to say is life isn't fair.

I also hate this "God Bless America" Christian nation feel thats taken over my country. Its makes me angry. So very angry.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#36 Post by Andreas » 04 May 2011 14:19

If I was an American, I wouldn't mind God blessing my country. The question is if it is the case. But the phrase "God bless America" is more like a wish than stating that it is really happening of course.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#37 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 14:23

Andreas wrote: @t.a.j.: human rights do not apply absolutely on every human. For instance, when a guy goes out in the public and randomly shoots people, you can't really say he lost his right to live, but that particular right can be "less valid", so to speak. In that case, law enforcement can shoot to kill (but agreed, taking alive is preferable).
Of course sometimes rights conflict. And there is an appropriate procedure for when that happens. It's called the law. By being within the territory of a lawful state, you agree to be treated by their laws, assuming, for simplicity's sake that those laws are themselves just. Among other things, one such just law might concern itself with self-defence of defence of others under threat.
But there is no law, to the best of my knowledge, that says that it is all right to go to someone's house and assassinate them. Not that such a law, if it existed, were just.
But to both of you: I do not necessarily agree with how all this happened. We have to deal with reports made by the US government and maybe later some eyewitnesses, so I can't possibly know what really happened. That's why I won't judge the behaviour of the US.
It's not "the US" that did anything. It was a bunch of members of particular elites. And if those leaders and commanders would have wanted to turn this into a triumph of justice and right, they could have. They could have taken him alive, brought him before trial, accused him and let him defend himself in an international court of justice. Alas, they didn't want to do this. Why? I don't know. Maybe they felt that a trial would heat up foreign relations and invite more terrorism, maybe they felt that assassinating him was the best propaganda to appear strong and mighty before their citizens, maybe they were afraid of what would be said openly at a such a sure to be very public trial. It doesn't really matter. What they did was choose not to stand on the side of law and right, but to act as any ruler of the past would have, on their own and in their own interests, without care for law, right and justice.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#38 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 04 May 2011 14:25

The thing that gets me most is the founding fathers of my nation created this country to be a secular nation. That knowledge has disappeared and the Christian oppression continues.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#39 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 14:28

Andreas wrote:If I was an American, I wouldn't mind God blessing my country. The question is if it is the case. But the phrase "God bless America" is more like a wish than stating that it is really happening of course.
The point is that it paints the USA as a christian entity, a holy nation if you will and it carries of the connotations of religious hate, exclusivism and crusadership associated with theocrazies. For a non-christian subjected to violence and oppression by the hands of the US government and corporations or discrimination by US nationals, this paints the whole conflict in religious terms. He might easily victimized for his religious otherness and religious conflicts are notoriously difficult to mediate. Simply put: "God bless America" is an insult to every faithful of every religion anywhere else. Not to mention that it makes the speaker look like a nutcase in the eyes of secularists.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#40 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 14:32

Baby_Kürsch wrote:The thing that gets me most is the founding fathers of my nation created this country to be a secular nation. That knowledge has disappeared and the Christian oppression continues.
What do the intentions of those long dead people, which are at best historical, at worst hypothetical, to do with anything?
If christian political domination is bad, it is because there is something wrong with christianity or christian doctrine and not because some people intended something some 240 years ago. Put differently: even if Thomas Jefferson had tried to institute a theocratic society, christian homophobia wouldn't be any better.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#41 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 04 May 2011 14:44

Religious oppression was one of the driving forces behind the creation of my country.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#42 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 16:00

Well, the colonisation of North America was accompanied by waves and ripples of religious adventurism. And as soon as their particular brand of Christian superstition found opposition and oppression among the other colonist, they just moved into some other space. Sometimes conveniently emptied of natives by disease, sometimes actively emptied by the migrating colonists. Religious oppression has been a mainstay of euro-american culture since the beginning of colonisation. Hardly were people advocated of toleration, they just wanted to be the oppressors instead of the oppressed and that is what they did. Up until the late 19th century, there were many anti-catholic laws in place, anti-catholicism being a carry over from the european protestant nations, which had spawned North American colonisation. Then let us not forget the attempts at Christianisation of the natives, which threatened to eradicate their culture.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#43 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 04 May 2011 16:27

Wait wait wait Osama openly admitted to being behind the attacks on 9/11 we knew he was guilty before all of this getting shot in the head went down. What would be the point of a trial for a man who we already knew was guilty? Lets not forget he admitted to the crime. Thats an important key element here.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#44 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 16:50

A criminal gets a trial, where he can defend himself, which is concluded by a verdict, which might be appealed against. After the conclusion of this process, punishment will be administered in accordance with the verdict. That is how one treats a criminal.
Since OBL was not treated like this, you have several options.
1. Call him a criminal and deny what I have said above. This makes you disagree with the notion that all persecution is to be governed by law and that law applies equally to all.
2. Say that he is not a criminal, but something else and delegate the question of how he should have been dealt with to some other appropriate authority.
3. Call him a criminal and affirm what I said above, but make an exception because he is so horrible. This makes you inconsistent and injust.
4. Say that he is a criminal, affirm what I said above and admit that given these premises, it was wrong to assassinate him without due process.

Options 1 and 3 make OBL'S treatment out to be correct, though they carry great costs. Option 2 just moves the problem around. You might e.g. say that he was a enemy at war, then he should have been treated according to whatever the rules for enemies at war are. Probably those also exclude assassinations, but what do I know.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#45 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 04 May 2011 17:30

A criminal only gets a trial if they plead not guilty. He admitted, pleading guilty, to being behind the attacks on 9/11. There is no need to prove him guilty, which is what you do in a trial, if he willing admits that he is guilty.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#46 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 04 May 2011 17:45

Actually after reading a few articles on the Internets it seems there isn't 100% concrete evidence that he was behind the attacks on 9/11.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#47 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 17:52

Baby_Kürsch wrote:A criminal only gets a trial if they plead not guilty. He admitted, pleading guilty, to being behind the attacks on 9/11. There is no need to prove him guilty, which is what you do in a trial, if he willing admits that he is guilty.
To plead guilty, he must stand before the court and do so. Hearsay, recordings and written words do not count. Those might be presented as evidence, but the do not constitute pleading guilty. Furthermore, in a just court, someone who pleads guilty should still get a trial. He might be confused, deluded or lying.

And, as you mentioned, it has not been shown anywhere near conclusively that Bin Laden, or Al Quaida or anyone else was behind 9/11.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#48 Post by Desert_Storm » 04 May 2011 17:57

Of course a trial would have been better. But I hate how some people who call themselves "liberal" turn this into a reason for USA-bashing (like they do with everything that goes wrong over there).
Bin Laden was a terrible criminal who is liable for the death of thousands of innocent people. It's good to have him dead, even though an execution after a trial would have been favourable. Too bad it didn't happen, but many people seem to forget that who we're speaking about, and instead of being (at least) relieved that this potential danger to many other innocents all over the world is eliminated, they go complaining about the way this was done.
I hear nobody crying out that loud for "criminals" who are murdered by, say, the chinese government all the time for minor infringements of law, yet we all know about it and profit from the wealth that comes from trading with that country. Indeed, Europe seems to have become quite arrogant and hypocritical, always ready to point the finger at the US for stuff they do wrong, e.g. the "imperialism" mentioned above. I would like to remind every European who says something like that of the imperial crimes of our own nations, as described in Jean Ziegler's "La haine de l'Occident", for example. We are by now means better.
I'm relieved that Bin Laden is dead, I think everybody should be, even if it wasn't the best possible way to do it. Still, better have him dead this way than alive terrorising people, and for that matter I understand every cheering American over there (without having any relations to this country). Not because it's right, but because it's human.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#49 Post by t.a.j. » 04 May 2011 18:23

1. I did mention European imperialism above.
2. I really don't give a fuck about one more guy I never met killed by dog soldiers somewhere far away. What I care about is the kind of attitude that is expressed by people in power. If our leaders do not strive for what is right, the do not deserve to lead us.
3. If people say something stupid, I feel obliged to give them an incentive to rethink their position. You want to endorse arbitrary assassination without due process? Fine, but do not also endorse the rule of law and general human rights. These things contradict each other. Understand this, then form your opinion again.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#50 Post by Desert_Storm » 04 May 2011 18:49

t.a.j. wrote: 3. If people say something stupid, I feel obliged to give them an incentive to rethink their position.
thank you
You want to endorse arbitrary assassination without due process? Fine, but do not also endorse the rule of law and general human rights.
How did you get "endorsing arbitrary assassination" out of my post? I wrote that I prefer terrorists to be punished, in severe cases being executed. I wrote like three times that a trial would have been better. I wrote that I rather have him dead this way than running around killing innocents. Is there something wrong or stupid with that?
The imperialism part wasn't directed at you specifically, I just scrolled down a topic concerning the dead of a terrorist and criminal, and most posts seem to say: "Look what the evil Americans did now", what I find somehow strange.
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