Osama Bin Laden Dead

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Led Guardian
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#51 Post by Led Guardian » 04 May 2011 19:23

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
Any trial would have been pointless lip service to human rights, and would have ended with an execution anyway. It's not like he was secretive about what he did.
That's a fallacy. I agree that there's a likehood that he would've been found guilty and be executed, but the likeness of the outcome doesn't mean you can forfeit the procedure. If I applied your logic to other behavior I could say that it's okay to incarcerate a thief without trial, as he would've gone to jail anyway.

The point is that it was not the US's place to decide. The US might have been the victim of Osama's actions, but if the victim is allowed to dictate (and carry out) the punishment we are basically allowing ourselves to abandon our believes about freedom and be cast back into biblical times. We'd become the very thing we profess to oppose.
As I said, it was late. I used it incorrectly, but that statement is really more a prediction than an argument.

@t.a.j. I'm mainly saying that I consider it possible forfeit that right through extreme enough acts. But I'm not completely sure. I haven't finished arguing it with myself yet. It's hard for me to make a consistent argument when my opinion is nowhere near certain. :wink:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#52 Post by John T. Berzanske IV » 06 May 2011 01:46

I find no joy in celebrating a man's death and I clearly understand and appreciate the purpose of due process. I do not champion everything my governemt and elected officials do. Was it wrong of the U.S. government to execute the opperation without the involvement of the Pakistan government? Perhaps - I haven't picked a side on this one yet. I've read a couple articles that while he was unarmed, he was lunging towards his weapons, an AK-47 and a Makarov pistol. Maybe he was actually unarmed and submitting to arrest.

I don't know what the absolute truth is but one thing is for sure: I feel no remorse whatsoever for a murderer of men, women and especially children. Trial or not, fuck him. This is of course only my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own perspective.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#53 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 06 May 2011 11:59

John T. Berzanske IV wrote:I don't know what the absolute truth is but one thing is for sure: I feel no remorse whatsoever for a murderer of men, women and especially children. Trial or not, fuck him. This is of course only my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own perspective.
It's not about remorse or about the fact that he's dead. Nobody, including TAJ argued that Bin Laden shouldn't have been killed. The fact that I'm opposing is the way it went down. Because what does it say about our society once we start accepting that people can be executed without trial? And more importantly: who gets to make the call? How will that person be held accountable for his choice?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#54 Post by Frozen within » 06 May 2011 12:25

I dunno, maybe it says that our society is waking up and the people in charge start to realize that some (very highly exceptional) matters are dealt with only 1 way ? Vengeance in the name of honor is a commonly accepted thing to many Turkish people (and sometimes even judges). Now THAT'S complete and utter bullshit if you ask me, having the green light to kill your sister because she frenched a guy who listens to Blind Guardian. In cases like Osama's, imo noone should even ask himself if the whole thing went down alright. Like, what the fuck, make a media spectacle out of it and inflate his martyrdom some more ? The guys was done for when he decided he had no other way of 'communicating' with the west instead of sending airplanes into big buildings. Not every murder should be countered by another death, but there are clear cases of people who lost their human side and seek only to kill and destroy, compulsively. There is no remedy but death for some.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#55 Post by t.a.j. » 06 May 2011 12:47

Just this:
but there are clear cases of people who lost their human side and seek only to kill and destroy, compulsively.
How exactly did you develop the conviction that this is an adequate description for someone you have ever heard about only by the reports of his worst enemies?`I mean, that is a very deep psychological judgment you are making there, not some more vague political statement. And if you make that judgment about somehow who organized the death of maybe 6 thousand people, what about Bush and Obama, who organise wars, which have so far killed almost a million people?

How do you justified this?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#56 Post by Frozen within » 06 May 2011 13:25

t.a.j. wrote:Just this:
but there are clear cases of people who lost their human side and seek only to kill and destroy, compulsively.
How exactly did you develop the conviction that this is an adequate description for someone you have ever heard about only by the reports of his worst enemies?`I mean, that is a very deep psychological judgment you are making there, not some more vague political statement. And if you make that judgment about somehow who organized the death of maybe 6 thousand people, what about Bush and Obama, who organise wars, which have so far killed almost a million people?

How do you justified this?
Soldiers are sent to battlefields because of international agreement. Sending airplanes into buildings with only innocent and unaware people to make clear that you're not too fond of what that country represents in your eyes, is like, something else altogether.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#57 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 06 May 2011 13:31

Frozen within wrote:Not every murder should be countered by another death, but there are clear cases of people who lost their human side and seek only to kill and destroy, compulsively. There is no remedy but death for some.
This might be true, but who's to deal out judgment? You? The media? The president of the USA? All of these options seam fairly pointless, as we have already established a system - embodied in judges, juries and indeed procedure - that deals with injustice on a national and global level. While it's a system that's not perfect all the time, at least it's preferable to a system where a politician becomes the judge, jury and executioner by proxy.

We have gone through many struggles to separate the legislative, executive and juridical powers in our society, and taking an all too pragmatic approach basically amounts to forsaking these rules simply because they prove to be inconvenient. That's no democracy, that's a dictatorship.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#58 Post by Frozen within » 06 May 2011 13:38

How is it difficult to judge when the dude explicitly broadcasted himself all over the world, saying things like 'every godless son of a whore will pay with his blood' and following up on those comments by actually fulfilling them ? How can someone be held accountable for such acts, when he acts out of the conviction that nothing we have to offer (diplomacy, negotiating, compromises, on governmental levels) will do, we simply all have to die and then things will be sort of alright ?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#59 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 06 May 2011 13:42

How is it difficult to judge when the dude explicitly broadcasted himself all over the world, saying things like 'every godless son of a whore will pay with his blood' and following up on those comments by actually fulfilling them ?
So basically it's okay to kill someone because of their opinion voiced in a video?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#60 Post by John T. Berzanske IV » 06 May 2011 13:44

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:It's not about remorse or about the fact that he's dead. Nobody, including TAJ argued that Bin Laden shouldn't have been killed. The fact that I'm opposing is the way it went down. Because what does it say about our society once we start accepting that people can be executed without trial? And more importantly: who gets to make the call? How will that person be held accountable for his choice?
That's part of my point here. I am not disagreeing with the fact that due process was not carried out and that was indeed wrong. He should have gone to trial. The verdict would have been completely predictable but it still should have happened. I was mearly saying that while I do not celebrate death and I am wary of the way the opperation was carried out, I have no objection to his death. The verdict of that trial surely would have been execution and it doesn't change the fact that the trial still should have happened but to me, when you mindlessly murder people, you've already forfeited your human rights.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#61 Post by t.a.j. » 06 May 2011 15:03

John T. Berzanske IV wrote:mindlessly murder people
There's nothing mindless about it. Muslim terrorists are not inhuman monsters sitting in caves salivating at the thought of seventy virgins and the blood of infidels. They are human beings with agendas, interests, fears, desires, plans,... part of socialities which intergrate them and others, which ostracise them,...
And do you really believe that 9/11 was a mindless act of violence?
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFS3K_-aOzI is much closer to being mindless, thoughtless violence out of a sense of power.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#62 Post by John T. Berzanske IV » 06 May 2011 16:14

I cannot watch the link right now but I will when I get home. I never said or alluded to Muslim’s being mindless monsters. I’m quite aware and respect that they have agenda’s, perspective, fears and desires just like any other human being on the planet. I’ve never once bought into the hysteria of Muslims living and breathing for the death the USA, 70 virgins, jihad nonsense. However, I can’t justify the murder of innocent people in the name of religion or politics. The agenda in this case was murder via political power playing.

I used the term mindless loosely. Perhaps astronomically inconsiderate and cold would be a better phrase. I don’t think Bin Laden was actually mindless and a dementia stricken lunatic. I do, however, feel that his actions, no matter how deeply attached to his fears, desires, perspective and agenda completely violated the rights of others. The 9/11 attack was a pointless act of violence, a disgusting act of violence and an unacceptable act of violence. His other violent actions are just as foul. Just because there was a mindset behind the action doesn’t mean the perpetrators are suddenly justified in said action.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#63 Post by John T. Berzanske IV » 07 May 2011 09:25

OK, I've watched the video and read through the website. That was sickening. I don't condone these horrifying acts either. Anyone that revels in these actions can rot at the bottom of the sea as well. And you can superimpose the same logic you used earlier on this scenario. These murderers had interests, fears, agendas and personalities just like the terrorists that performed the attacks on 9/11. And just like the terrorists, they're actions were still dead wrong and completely inexcusable.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#64 Post by No‘am » 07 May 2011 10:53

t.a.j. wrote:
John T. Berzanske IV wrote:mindlessly murder people
There's nothing mindless about it. Muslim terrorists are not inhuman monsters sitting in caves salivating at the thought of seventy virgins and the blood of infidels. They are human beings with agendas, interests, fears, desires, plans,... part of socialities which intergrate them and others, which ostracise them,...
And do you really believe that 9/11 was a mindless act of violence?
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFS3K_-aOzI is much closer to being mindless, thoughtless violence out of a sense of power.
Some actually are. They care about nothing but killing whoever they decided to kill, without any other agendas or without plans of reaching any higher goal.
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Osama Bin Laden Dead

#65 Post by Hansi Smurf » 10 May 2011 21:59

Unmuscular, Short, Ugly People: Socio-Paths; now they whine together about Due Process and Law, and yet all the while openly competing against me for money and sex: dull, insipid hypocrites, really! (Are they really as described in the opening statement, or are they just Evil? Same thing really! And remember: The Good Guy Always Wins!)

With respect to the information, the people must democratically manufacture kill, keep killing via desire and uninhibited reactions, or lose their properties, families, right to have sex, drive automobiles et al: you Sub the Mental Age of 21 year olds, you! Yeah, you all outta either admit "Reckoning is Very Hard For Me, I am a Mental Age Idiot", or, you all ought to start supporting, and very easily I might add, both the Western Democracies, and, the "Vote Out Cops, Vote Out Standing Laws and Vote Out Due Process Too" Movement, and thus be as Men! (Oh God! They are not Men! They are Obsolete Caste Workers!)

My friends, the End Times Church and the Global Military Theocracy are both still very eagerly awaiting what response might come from the 1968-1978 body, today's, generally speaking, Fit Electorate: Personally, I suspect that Mass Global Door To Door Bayoneting will occur, rather than Mass Rational Thinking, and with Mass Rational Thinking, an accompanying Global Awakening To The Awesome Truth that is Traditonal Martial Law! In other words, if you will not very easily vote for to abandon Rape & Consent Laws, you will be destroyed. If you do not have a Fertile, Monogamous, Unbastardized, Unadulterated Sex Drive, you will be destroyed! If you are feeble, and thus responsible for society's cash-accounting, you will be destroyed!


An algorythmic hypothesis, a Martian Rhetoric: If brain/back-bone EMF based mind/causality-reading, then: Soldiers and Obamas and Terrorists, and, Most People Generally, aren't cognitive: they do not have an inner-voice driving them, they are driven soley by an Opposing Cognitive Genius, ie a Giant, or a Mechanized Society, in their midst! (Sounds insane, I agree, but I believe, certainly, that Polygraph Equipment, Farady Cages, and Catscan/MRI Mechanisms, will prove the research from Cartoonist Will Eisner and the novel "Christ the Vampire", very correct! (Gee Whiz! Yuh mean they already done did it???))

So, by my own version of Scientific Expeditioning, the people are certainly Bio-Mechanically Cognition-Free Sociopaths! (And by God, are they all ever a bunch of jealous cock-blockers! (No kids, Boob's not coming home: I'm starting over again! Hooray for Deuterogamy!))

What? You want Further Evidence? Well, as any might observe as easily as food on a fork, despite many of the speeched being by the Tale of Years over 21, most can still "get into trouble", rather than being Dignified and Neutral, and/or inside correct Divine Providence, whereby each individual alive today is either "alive" to you, or "dead" to you, but certainly not both, and certainly in Correct Divine Providence, if you slay someone, no cops, lawyers, nor judges will ever exist! Nope! No male togetherness, save for Blue Collar Work, at all!

(An aside: "Yeah, I agree with Psychology 101: the Judges and Lawyers and Cops ARE ALL Stamford Prison Experiments, Pretending Authority Above the Laws by which they had for to abide by, for to be sworn in, in the first place!")

Technically, I'd prefer "Society By Public School Division", and with it, the rampant ethnic-cleansing of all of the Competitor-Type DNA!

(Nah, Dick! Yer family were never smart enuff for have to have ever concieved of you via the Third Eye and Divine Conception! Naw! There's no such thing as Christian Eugenics and Love For All! Nah! That'd be impossible!)

Whatever!

Die by the Sword, No'Am!

(PS. Yeah, I felt sorry for Iraq's Saddam Hussein and Romania's Cheauchesceu: they were both Pillars of White Establishment, IQ Examiners, Moralists! Meanwhile, in hindsight, Bill Clinton and George Bush seem for to have both been Humanist Idiots; Upholders of the Rule and the Equality of the Unclean! As for Osama Bin Laden? He never fought on behalf of my own very fertile, and very polygamous, cock and balls, at all: AND, when I achieved intellectual "Invincible Flying House Factories", spiritually, Osama, he sought for to blow them up! Now that's some kind of family man, huh?

And, uh, oh yeah? Canadian Broadcasting Corporation? When you count heads in China for monogamy stats? Next time, remember that Tibet, and presumably many other regions, too, are traditionally, polyandrous! (Yuck!) China? Are you sure that Tibet actually ever had a Dali Lama as it's governor? Polyandrous countries are often headed by a Queen Mother, after all? Somebody should go into Tibet and check! The Dali Lama might be a fraud, or a front, or both! Kayfabe!)

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead

#66 Post by Metal Fan » 13 May 2011 02:01

Hallelujah!
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